Posted by: Donna Cunningham | April 10, 2010

Boundaries 101 ~ A Course for Neptunians

 ©2010 by guest blogger, Joyce Mason of The Radical Virgo

 I have the blessing/curse of a strong Neptune. If you have several planets in Pisces, the 12th house, or numerous aspects to Neptune—come to my class! While I relish my intuitive abilities, artistic eye, and think compassion is one of my best characteristics, there’s the downside.

At times in my life, I really knew how to spell victim (J-o-y-c-e). Since I also have a fairly large dose of Pluto, you can only imagine the high drama that was my daily fare until I matured enough to handle this astrological load.

In reviewing where I stand with boundary issues, in all honesty, I can only give myself a C+/B-. I’ve gotten much better with chronic offenders and their behavior I used to let go on too long without calling them on crossing the line. My tolerance time is shorter, and I’m more attuned to things not “feeling right.”

When I state my boundaries clearly and people continue to cross them, I sever the relationship. It takes too much life force to fight “energy theft” which goes on under the table, when the other person is either in denial or oblivious to the transaction. These encounters remind me of a line from The DesiderataAvoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.

Aggression is not always loud. It is sometimes quiet and so subtle, it slips all notice until you are in a state of advanced vexation. I do not deserve to be vexed by people who bite my neck and suck my energy. Neither do you.

Close Encounters of the Icky Kind

I had a close encounter of the negative Neptunian kind recently at the grocery store. The bag clerk was a young woman who made some teasing remarks that didn’t sit right with me. I didn’t think her banter was funny. Anyone who has ever encountered a bully knows that teasing can be cruel. It is only sweet if done with great affection, care, and knowledge of the recipient.

Teasing humor is only appropriate between intimates. To kid somebody without hurting them, you have to know their buttons, touch them, but love them enough not to push.

I didn’t know this kid in the grocery store from Adam. I figure, to allow entrée for that kind of ribbing, I should at least know her name. She could have tromped all over my buttons and left me bloody. On an energetic level, I felt like I’d just been slimed.

When the older checkout clerk picked up that her sidekick’s remarks didn’t land well, she said, “She’s just messin’ with ya.”

“Whatever,” I said, not sweetly.

“In the best possible way,” the older, wiser one tried to intervene.

Intervention should have not been necessary. This young woman’s mother, sister, teacher—someone should have taught her that certain kinds of humor are not for strangers you just met in the grocery store. Or am I being too Virgo/ hypersensitive? I don’t think any regular reader of this blog would question that I have a sense of humor.

One of the ironies in this encounter is that I did not hear completely what the young woman said to me, but I definitely got the vibe. The older woman’s comment that her workmate was “messin’ with me” confirmed that my radar was working even if the noise level blurred some of the particulars.

I’m relieved that I’ve stopped doubting my intuition in these instances. I can’t count the times in the past I have been fogged and convinced myself “it was just me.” Later, after unwitting participation in prolonged, anguished, and underground game-playing, I’d discover that I’d read the situation clearly in the first place. I just buried the truth in self-doubt.

I find the assumption of instant intimacy to be very passive-aggressive. There used to be a euphemism for unwanted sexual advances—getting too familiar. Presumed intimacy, whether sexual or psychic, feels like a violation.

There’s a woman I encounter regularly who got off on the wrong foot with me by this kind of joking from the first day I met her. I watch her do it to others and wince. I can barely stand to be around her and avoid her like the plague.

She also does the other thing I can’t abide that I consider so passive-aggressive. She “tells on you.” If there’s something you do that annoys her, she’ll be sure to announce it with thinly veiled sarcastic humor, only when she has an audience. Of course, she can always claim—and usually does, that she was “just kidding.” 

“Apparently you don’t know how to kid properly. We aren’t both laughing.” ~Ellen DeGeneres

Let’s Hear Your Tips on Busting Negative Neptune

I am really at a loss how to deal with some of these folks. Do I have to be willing to make a scene? “Be snotty,” that thing my Mom couldn’t stand in me when I was a mouthy kid who didn’t know any better?

Maybe I just have to state my truth politely. If bad feelings follow, join the party. I already feel bad! I hate to risk a confrontation in the grocery store or at a meeting. Is there a more elegant way? Is it worth the potential discomfort with a stranger or mere acquaintance?

In the same way I don’t know some of these women well enough for their teasing “humor;” I wonder if I know them well enough to tell them how much their behavior offends me. If I did, would it fall on deaf ears and cost me a large, worrying energy expenditure that would, once again, leave me feeling sucked dry?

Living in integrity is not as easy as it sounds. Neither is living with a chunk of chalk where you have to keep drawing your line, especially in the nebulous, intuitive, energy realms.

Neptunian types, by our very nature, are more open at subtle energy levels and draw “inappropriate advances.” For our own mental health, we simply have to learn how to identify and deflect them.

If only I had been quick enough on the uptake to do that the first time—or had heard that great line by Ellen DeGeneres before, instead of after this encounter. Ellen showed me yet another option—fight Jupiter with Jupiter, “humor” with humor.

The Radical Virgo knows there’s no “right” answer on this one, but she welcomes a conversation in the Comments about how you handle boundaries and interactions that go too far into your psychic space without permission. Together, we can create the class—and with our synergy, maybe we’ll come up with some classy solutions.

 Note: This is an excerpt from an article that you can see in its entirety here: http://radicalvirgo.blogspot.com/2010/03/boundaries-101-course-for-neptunians.html. It is reprinted with permission of the author.

For more Articles Related to Boundaries on Skywriter:  Boundaries 201–Ten More Tips for Neptunians , and for a list of other articles about Neptune , see: 22 Articles about Neptune on Skywriter.

About the Author: Joyce Mason has been typing up a storm since finding her first pen pal at age ten. Back then on her manual typewriter and now on her laptop, she clicks out observations about human nature. She spent nearly two decades as a consulting astrologer, tarot reader, a certified flower essence practitioner, and dreamworker. She earned her B.A. in Social Work  from the University of Wisconsin. 

Joyce has published dozens of articles in astrological magazines.  She wrote for and edited the international newsletter, Chironicles, during its four-year run and is the author of Chiron and Wholeness: A Primer.  Read more of her work on her blog, The Radical Virgo.


Responses

  1. Wow! Great post. Very affirming and freeing for me to read your thoughts on the subject! Thanks, I needed the boost.

    This is the first time I’ve seen the connection between my Neuptunian ‘loading’ and my incredible slowness on the uptake and comeback to other people’s ‘social’ jibes, etc. I get so MAD at myself that it takes hours, days or weeks for my response to ‘hit’ me — and it usually does as if it comes from somewhere completely unknown to me. Yup, I bet it does — from the unseen watery depths!

    The other handy (yet at times very difficult to negotiate publicly) ‘gift’ I have is to walk into any environment and quicker than snot, know immediately if there is a person there with great buried rage.

    At 58, now that my niceness hormone has taken a vacation, I am just as apt to respond above-board in kind as I am to smooth the troubled waters another person’s unconcealed but denied rage creates. Boy oh BOY, is that entertaining! Like a chemical reaction barely contained — I SHOULDN’T do that, I know, if peace for all is truly my aim. It’s just that nowadays I have so little patience for the dangers of others ‘dishing it out’ — which I think they are more apt to do because somehow they sense and know I AM NOT GOING TO MISS IT when they splash, spatter and spurt their ICK!

    Thanks for this great post! Linda

    • Very interesting, Linda. We Neptunians are often psychic sponges, but I suspect the type of things we most easily pick up on are 1)connected with the Neptune aspects in our chart and 2)connected with the emotional potholes in our homes growing up. If anger was a dangerous sign in our family dynamics, we develop a kind of radar for that; if sorrow was a danger signal, we develop the early detection tools for that. and so on. Donna

  2. I have strong Neptune influences. Add to that a moon in Scorpio and Pluto opposing my Pisces sun. It’s strange but I pick up on people’s “vibes” instantly. What they say is only secondary to what my impression is of them.

    I have to be careful of two things; 1.) Not having “eggshell” feelings about them. By eggshell, I mean being too fragile and getting my feelings hurt. In other words, developing a thick skin. There are a lot of morons in this world; 2.) Not sponging up the bad energy from people I spend a lot of time with. I have to admit, I’m not very good at this. I’ve had to work with very negative, dark, bad energy people. It can suck the life out of me. As much as I’m aware of my tendency to soak up vibes, I can’t maintain the forcefield forever.

  3. Great post. I scored high on being Neptunian and it shocked me. I could not figure out how that fit me, but after reading Joyce’s article and seeing how much I am like her, I am beginning to understand Neptune a little more.

    I too can pick up the negative vibes coming from people…that others do not see. I also know the anger at people who announce what you do, that they don’t like under that veil of humor. It makes them look good, and you look bad if you respond with anger. I hate this with a passion. And there is one relative that does this to me on a regular basis and I am slowly figuring out how to stop her.

    If I go with my gut on most things, I am always better off. When I second guess myself there are more problems.

    I can pick up on the problem people in a room. And I always seem to be able to read them better than most. I don’t fall for con artists because I am on alert when I meet people like this. I know when I hear BS.

    I also sever a relationship if people will not respect my feelings, or boundaries. It is easier than trying to play their games. It drains me too much. Dealing with them puzzles me also. I don’t want to be mean and I can’t seem to keep my cool if I do confront them. And rarely do I get anyone to listen to me anyway. So I end up always being angry around these types.

    One thing that really stands out to me is that people have always said I was too sensitive. I never really knew what they meant, but now that I am older I do. I was not being sensitive about myself, but I was being sensitive to the feelings around me. The problem is that I did not realize this and didn’t respond the right way. I didn’t really know why things bothered me, just that they did. Know I know a little better and can usually tell when I am picking up the negativity/pain from others.

    I have a lot of Cancer, so that brings out the feelings aspect of things for me.

    Thanks again Joyce, very enlightening!

    • What I’ve always noticed–being a Cancer myself–is that if we’re being sensitive to other people’s feelings, they say it’s a good thing. But if we’re sensitive to our own feelings, then we’re labeled “hypersensitive.” Same sensitivity either way, just given a different spin. Donna

      • Amen to that statement Donna!

        Why can’t we Cancers be as concerned for ourselves as for others? Seems that any time I stand up for me and want something I am treated like I am being selfish.

        Sometimes I think that I have given in so much to others, (because I really do care about their feelings) that when I finally say time for me they are in shock.

        Somehow they seem to forget all the things I have done for them. I think I make their lives so danged cushy that they can’t take the change. And part of that could be that I do sense what they want or need, and try to give it to them. The minute I don’t I am selfish!

        I find that many times there is no one to listen to me when I need to vent, but they all vent on me. I have learned to dump those people who have used me as their personal psychologist, but won’t return the favor.

        But I still notice that when I do vent many people want to tell me to just calm down. Well…why do I have to calm down, if they don’t? Or are my feelings so strong that it makes them uncomfortable? Still working on that one. Of course a Mars/Uranus conjunction that conjuncts my Ascendent could make them right about that. LOL

      • HI, Susie! I think maybe us Cancerian children are expected/taught to be little mommies to our brothers and sisters, so the bit about not being selfish might have partly come from that. MY Dad’s phrase was “share and share alike,” and he called me Big Sis.

        On the other hand, Mars near the Ascendant, especially conjunct Uranus CAN have quite a temper and tend to fly off the handle. I have Mars/Pluto on the Ascendant, and have had to learn to speak up well before I get mad, because it’s pretty devastating for people when I do!

        Assertive is good, creaming others is not, and I’ve found that being assertive and setting boundaries early, clearly, and firmly cuts down on the need to really blow up. I’ve read and worked with a lot of teachings about anger, and try not to perpetrate it on others, as it is usually MY stuff that’s being triggered. Jane Robert’s Seth said, “The sole cause of anger is unmet expectations.” Donna

  4. Wow! This post really hit home for me, and thank you Joyce and Donna for your very illuminating article. With a very sensitive Pisces Moon and Natal Neptune very close to my MC, I have felt the Neptune vibe many, many times, especially when interacting with people who are agressive types. I grew up in a home filled with anger and bullying, and developed a feeling of extreme danger when in situations where people were noisy, obnoxious, pushy, or otherwise out of control when interacting with me. I felt like a bowl of jello at times. After years of people telling me I was too soft hearted, too sensitive, too thin skinned, and needed to grow a backbone, I finally got the message that being too “nice” invites agressive people to push your buttons. Lucky for me, I have planet Saturn conjunct my Moon, and found my way to draw the line and set boundaries for myself, even tho it was hard to do so. So I think using one’s Saturn is a must for all those with powerful Neptunian energy, because Saturn will help one say “enough is enough”, and “stop right there” when people go too far with teasing, ridiculing, bullying, or whatever is offensive to you. Another funny thing with Neptune is that I often felt that I didn’t belong anywhere on this earth, but there are places where kindness, compassion, good manners, and a feeling of peacefulness is cherished and practiced every day. And that’s why I call Hawai’i home, where it is even considered rude to honk your horn in traffic, or to not greet your neighbor with a smile and a greeting of “Aloha”. Not much need for using boundaries here. Meleanna

    • Meleanna, I do think you’ve hit a good solution–the best antidote to an overly strong Neptune is to shore it up with a good Saturn. Donna.

      • With my 12th house Virgo stellium (sun, Venus, Mercury) I was thinking about the potential ‘antidote’ yesterday for myself — feeling at times like a hippo with its two completely different sets of ears — one hears above water, the other below water. My balance is better between the information I receive if I pay equal attention to info I get through my two sets of ‘ears’!

  5. I have a Pisces Moon trine Neptune and square Venus in the 12th. So, yes, I have had a huge problem with boundaries all my life. Fortunately or unfortunately, that Pisces Moon is also opposite Pluto in Virgo so that at times, when people least expect it, WHAM, this fire-eating dragon comes out and scorches them. I used to hate hurting people but now I’ve learned to moderate it somewhat — and also I’ve learned not to care too much if someone aggressive gets singed by my fire. Oh, well. You know, even if lions are terrifying, they still have to roar to get taken seriously.

    Here is ONE good way to set limits: don’t say anything. Just concentrate on everything you feel and give the offender a look laden with all that icy rage. It will stop them in their tracks, I promise you, because it is unexpected. Besides, bullies know how to twist words around but a look? If you want to really take them for a loop, here’s a trick I learned from my mother when someone made an inappropriate joke around her. She would smile and laugh at first and then very slowly as she was looking straight into the offender, her smile would freeze then melt away into a frigid and cold gaze which she would then hold until the offender squirmed and walked away. It sounds very theatrical but it is VERY effective and devastating.

    I find that in order to set strong boundaries for a Neptunian the first thing is not to harbor any doubt about what’s happening and, secondly, to withstand the anxiety of meting out the proper justice.

    • Thanks Eme, that is good advice. I used to do the looks, but lost it somewhere. I will try that instead of talking and see how it works.

    • That sounds effective. But what about when the offender simply looks away? We need a back-up strategy.

      • I have an invisible tiger that I turn loose on them with the command to do whatever is necessary. I have been amazed how well it has worked.

  6. Hi Joyce/Donna

    You know, I wonder if the work on these issues has to be done before the type of event you mentioned. What I mean is that an experience such as that has come around in order to strengthen your boundaries – the test hurts, but encourages you to stand up and take notice next time. If you put the work in on yourself, you create an invisible vibe, or energy field that will no longer attract that type of experience – because you no longer need it. Just a theory really but I have noticed it working in my own life. Still a long, long way to go though!

    • Good question, Tony. But I think the work goes on before, during, and after, because boundaries don’t get established once for all time…they are situational and porous and need frequent reinforcing sometimes for a long time until they are firm.

      Too, I think what we are actually reinforcing when we work on boundaries is our energy field/aura. There are many, many things that can create holes in our auras (childhood abuse/codependency; surgery; accidents; addictions; alien interference; psychic cords; etc. etc) and when there is a hole, it seems to need a lot of work.

      For instance, I was in a bad car accident, and for years after, my aura was seriously damaged on the side where the car hit us, and still was vulnerable after lots of energetic healing. For years, when I spoke to a crowd, I had to have a friend sit on that side, or the energy of the crowd was quite overwhelming. Donna

  7. Wow!!! This whole post is sooooo cool!!!! I completely identified with Joyce’s story as well as everyone else’s experiences and also find the “solution” to this situation somewhat fleeting at times….Although, I believe Tony is on the right track.

    I would usually think of a really good come-back to these people’s remarks, etc. long after the incident, so I began to REALLY think about where the roots of the problem were. In my very humble opinion;-) I believe that we are solely responsible for our own feelings; that no other person can cause us to feel a certain way. It’s still kind of hard to even say that sentence out loud because when I was first told it, I thought, what?? that’s rediculous!! OF COURSE other people can MAKE me feel bad, good, etc. and it took a REALLY long time to be able to get to the core of what it really meant and then be able to actually APPLY to my life….still clumsily working on it!!!!!

    So anyway, I guess I kind of compare myself, in those situations, to someone who has or knows an “inside-joke”. The joke being that we, as Neptunians, are in essence a step ahead of these lower-vibrational people in the first place (energetically) and the main reason their remarks are bothersome to us, is because their tar-like, negative energy gets poo-poo-ed all over us in their presence, thus causing annoying little holes in our normally well-functioning defense mechanisims. That was a mouth-full;-) We all know that responding with anger is just what they want and fuels their fire even more, and no response at all is often easier said than done. I think that just by simply KNOWING that we ARE the “bigger” person in the situation and having that essence SOLIDLY permeating throughout our aura or existence, can make so much of a difference, that it starts to actually deflect us away from those tar-people in the first place.

    The trick I guess, is similar to life’s grand trick: getting yourself to a space where you BELIEVE/KNOW you are “more evolved” without the ego part getting in the way. In the meantime, mixing in a little of what Eme Kah suggested; frigid, blank stare;-) with a little snickering now and then, might help to get through the more extreme situations. I also learned a pretty funny come-back for situations like these, from an ex-boyfriends grandmother; “If it makes you feel more comfortable, we can pretend” 😉 That never fails to get under the other persons skin….although it might just be sinking to their level???

  8. I am taking an inexpensive online course with psychic physician Dr. Judith at the Daily Om called “Combating Emotional Vampires.”
    The course seems appropos to subject matter of Neptunians and their boundry issues. I scored 62 0n your Neptune test, so I think it is course that could be very useful to me!

    • Sounds like a good resource, Melo. Let us know how it works out. Donna

  9. Hello-
    If you haven’t yet read Donna Eden’s book, Energy Medicine, you might want to add it to your bookshelf. She provides tangible & daily exercises to do that clear your energy field and strengthen the tears and other damage done from previous experiences. I found it invaluable! I also stumbled onto Emotional Freedom Technique, that even a 4-year-old can do. Same wonderful results- once the stuff is cleared out, the result seems to be that that kind of behavior may swirl around you, but doesn’t land. No idea how or why, but I love the effect!

    • Great recommendations, Kerrie. The Emotional Freedom Technique (EFT, popularly known as “tapping”) is a great self-help technique. You’ll find official sites on line with directions for how to do it. Donna

  10. Wow! I want to scoop you all up and gather you in one place– the first of many meetings of the Empowered Sensitives! What a treasure trove of experience and ideas you’ve shared. I resonated with every single comment. To mention just a few highlights:

    Eme, I can’t resist the idea of adding the theatrical, icy stare to my repertoire. My “whatever” was mousy by comparison! Susie, I love hearing someone else acknowledge that we’re born with a big BS-o-meter. I could always tell, as a kid, when grown-ups were lying to me and found it so disconcerting. I was supposed to look up to them! Meleanna, I would die without my Capricorn Moon and Saturn’s positive influence in my chart. I’d be on street corners emoting and embarrassing myself. Tony, we absolutely have to work on building up our energy fields. Back in the olden days when this boomer was still a baby, there was a great toothpaste commercial. Mr. Happy Tooth would be brushed with Colgate with Gardol. It created an invisible, sparkly shield against Mean Old Mr. Tooth Decay. I still use that image as a Neptune tool. Samantha, you’re right–those folks are icky/sticky from being in a different part of their evolution, but we must just bless them on their path in their time–as you say, without ego.

    Synchronicity rules my life, and that dream I had followed by the grocery store experience nudged me to share on this topic. I also have started reading an invaluable tool, a book called “Are You Really Too Sensitive?” by psychic Marcy Calhoun. I was introduced to Marcy’s work in an interview of her in Yoga Journal in the late ’80s. She has some exercises that involve declaring your space by saying your name aloud in different ways. This is the most powerful “decording” exercise I have ever used. It was the only thing that allowed me to untangle from my first husband, a Pisces who had his energy hooks in me long after we separated. Even though it was written over 20 years ago, Marcy’s book rocks and helps sensitives get more of the good stuff our of our mixed blessing.

    You have done everything I hoped for by writing this article–got a dialogue going that is truly our own Boundaries 101 course. Thank you so much, and I hope to hear more from you both here on Sky Writer and The Radical Virgo.

    • Joyce is the author of this article, folks, a friend and colleague for over 25 years. Thanks for joining in, Joyce. Donna

      • Thank you again Joyce for writing this article, I think it has really helped me get in touch with my Neptune. Plus I realize I am not the only with these feeling, I am part of a club…LOL

        I am going to look for that book as I have heard “you are too sensitive” all my life and it drives me nuts at times. I never knew how caring for me could be “too sensitive”. I have never been accused of that when I am caring for someone else.

        I do notice that when I have to stand up for me, I do get over animated because I am not comfortable doing it, and that might be part of the problem. It is like I have to force people to respect me.

  11. It’s so strange how Donna’s blog and guest blogs come at exactly the right time for me.
    My youngest sister has Down’s Syndrome and my brother-in-law and I’ve just spend the last 48 hours worrying about a news item I saw on the BBC Website
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8611275.stm
    it was prompted by this Mum’s blog about her daughter who has Down’s and when she went to see this ‘comedian’ she was upset about his ‘comedy’ routine that mocked people with Down’s, critised their hair-cuts, their parents, he said ‘they die early’ and mimicked the way they spoke:
    http://k3tten.blogspot.com/2010/04/punching-me-in-face-would-have-been.html
    I even wrote a post on the Guardian website and I’m still feeling upset today.
    I am now my sister’s legal guardian as my mother has Alzheimers and the whole event was cutting into my life.
    How dare he? How ignorant he is…how unfeeling his attitude is/was. People with Down’s are people, and my biggest worry was they can’t fight back….so I thought about what I’d ‘do’….until I received your blog and thought “I am better than this.”
    There is no way to cope with Neptune (I’m a Pisces by the way with Neptune in my 3rd house and Mercury in Pisces retrograde)
    I shall just celebrate the fact that I am sensitive and not try and ‘convert’ others to my sensitivity.
    Maybe Joyce, you will have to accept your sensitivity too and know that it makes the world a much nicer place:)
    In peace
    Mary
    xx

    • Hi, Mary, So sorry about all the nasty stuff out there about Downs. I love comedy–as you can tell from the posts lately for National Humor Month–but never the mean-spirited kind, which isn’t humor at all but verbal brutality. I worked for several years in group homes and workshops for the developmentally disabled, and found the Downs syndrome youngsters to be endearing. Nowadays, there’s so much early stimulation and rehab for them here in the States that I often see Downs people who are very advanced and even out doing things on their own. It always does my heart good to see them.

    • “so I thought about what I’d ‘do’….until I received your blog and thought “I am better than this.””

      This is my new strategy of late for dealing with people’s angry/rude emails. It feels great to simply not respond, or respond politely while not addressing their attacks at all.

      Like many here, I’ve also always been told I’m “too sensitive” (Pisces Ascendant, elevated Neptune), and my Mars-Jupiter conjunction in Aries in the 1st really can’t stand that and always wants to fight back. Not getting sucked into a draining argument over email/the internets is an excellent offense strategy.

  12. Great post. For me, the best way is to just call them out. And like Tony, I’m learning.

  13. Mary, thank you for sharing about your sister and some people’s insensitivity to those with Down’s Syndrome. My first job in 1969 as a social worker was with children with developmental disabilities. I was only the 2nd person in the State of Wisconsin to bring a new home consulting program to parents early-on, to hook them up all kinds of medical and social resources ongoing. Children with Down’s were among the sweetest, most loving beings of light I ever encountered. Along with some of their shared physical characteristics, most I met were very affectionate, eager to learn, and often had quite the sense of humor. They are a gift! Many far exceeded previous limits “professionals” thought went with the territory of their diagnosis, once given half a chance with proper resources. Several American movies of late have featured young people with Down’s. The world has come a long way, but in some spots, it obviously has a long way to go.

    My husband and I both worked in this field, and we are uncomfortable when comedians make fun of people who got a different roll of the genetic dice. If anything, people with Down’s are an example of how to be–open, loving, and eager to make maximum use of personal resources. An old expression that comes to mind about people who would make fun of innocents is that they’re more to be pitied than scorned. How unhappy does somehow have to be–or uncreative–to laugh at things another can’t help?

    I would never give up my sensitivity for the pain it has caused in the learning curve of how to live with it. If anything, your Down’s sister and her “siblings” worldwide who have been born in this unique way show us what it’s like to be pure in spirit. Their contrast to a comedian with no taste is stark! I wish you and your sis love and encounters with only the kindest people … and when you bump up against those who are not, to use another old saw (I seem to be full of them lately), “Consider the source.”

  14. Hi Joyce and Donna:

    Interesting article for which I do not have any practical advice on boundaries issues being afflicted with them myself (Mars in cancer sq Sun and part of a grand trine with Neptune in Scorpio and Mercury in Pisces.
    However your article brought up to my mind that this is also a cultural issue. Being a foreigner of French background living in the US, I can attest that the attitude your describe in the post is very “American”. The formality of French people and Europeans in general would not be conducive to this kind of situation even among the younger generation. You can spend years going to the same bakery in your neighborhood without going past “”Hello”, “Good Morning” or “Good Evening” with everybody involved being OK with the situation, as opposed to the American Business dictate that every employee has to be your best buddy. Maybe you would see less of this type of problem if employees were only asked to be polite and o their job. I believe the pressure to “befriend” every customer can cause some resentment.
    Very often I use this formality to my advantage in those kind of “sticky” situations while I build up some boundaries muscle.

    Fabienne

    • Hi Fabienne,
      What you describes might be better than what we have lately in the US. I think that the stores have become more like playgrounds. If we had a more formal relationship with businesses we wouldn’t feel too much at home in these places and have a little more respect for each other. That would eliminate those people who are trying to be too familiar with us by making jokes such as Joyce mentioned, and we would not have to worry about them pushing our boundries. The boundries would already be set and we could all stick to them.

      The way it is now, I see very few boundries in the way people live and act and I think we need to bring a few rules back, like curtesy, and respect for others.

      • Susie, you may have helped one of my best friends and I figure something out. Her not-quite-10 year old daughter chose to spend a book store gift card buying the biggest volume of Emily Post imaginable! The girl’s a Scorpio with Mars in Virgo. The issue didn’t feel that astrological to me, and she just may crave the boundaries of good manners in a world devoid of them of late. What makes it more complex is that our Internet relationships, too, become so intimate because of how many of us find and share with kindred spirits. I couldn’t agree more that courtesy and kindness need to be dusted off now more than ever.

    • Such a great point, Fabienne. Where did Americans ever get the idea in business or life that we have to be “tight” with everyone we meet? It’s not even possible or practical, much less desirable. You give me much to ponder. Now I want to examine the issue of boundaries among many other cultures. Thanks for your thought-provoking observations.

  15. Yes, I can let fly at times, but thankfully my Mars/Uranus is somewhat tempered by being in Cancer. I keep it under wraps too long before saying something and then it is too late. 🙂 So I am working on that.

    I think I was protective and bossy to all my siblings. I was the 2nd Mother, and they didn’t need one. So as I got older I had to give that up.

    I am learning so much from this particular discussion.

  16. Good blog. Thank you for your bedrock honesty.

    You (kind of ) asked what to do with people who invade your space and get your hackles up. etc.
    (IMHO), the kindest highest road way is to say nothing. 99% of the time they can’t hear/understand what you say and will be defensive. lose/lose….

    Speaking as one who frequently is/was guilty of above said invasive behaviors…….lots of times these folks are insecure. They need reassurance. In my case, I need reassurance that I am still on this planet. Compassion works well.

    You are attracting this for a reason.
    The wounds go deep on both sides and if you resonate so negatively, there must be something you can shift within yourself. Working hard on my shifting…..

    Peace,
    Molly

    • “Compassion works well.” “The wounds go deep on both sides and if you resonate so negatively, there must be something you can shift within yourself.” Well said. I need to remember this. xx

      • Great wisdom, Molly. Your thought parallels what I learned from “A Course in Miracles” and many other metaphysical sources, the idea that person “offending us” is often simply in pain–and as you said, we bring our own wounds to the equation. Often it’s just a mirror. Hopefully, the self-examination we’re all doing in these comments will make us better prepared to come to the next such encounter with compassion, even in how we draw the line. I need to get one of those bumper stickers I sometimes see, “Shift happens!”

      • Niiiice…indeed ACIM teaches that everything is either Love or a Call For Love. We can listen to Spirit in each and every situation for Guidance on how Love can come forward. If there is pain, it is time to forgive the illusion in my mind and listen to Spirit for the healing. Holy Spirit (our Right Mind) is the ultimate boundary holder.🙂

      • I love the reminder, Dortha. I’ve been an ACIM dilettante for the past 30 years…the course goes on regardless. Donna

  17. Great post and wonderful comments. Boundaries and how to establish them is something I can not afford to ignore (Moon conj Neptune, loaded 12th house).

    Had an unhappy reminder of the importance on paying attention to my usually quite good intuition when it comes to people recently. When I choose to leave a business partnership (thankfully no legal docs were signed) the other person ran through the whole gamut from victim to persecutor on me. I choose to keep my response polite and to the point rather than getting involved in tit for tat . . . very tough to do.

    Looking back I knew this person was prone to dramatic, emotional meltdowns but a mutual friend encouraged me to go ahead. :::shakes head:::

    (IMHO), the kindest highest road way is to say nothing. 99% of the time they can’t hear/understand what you say and will be defensive. lose/lose….

    I completely agree, Molly. Good advice.🙂

    diane~

  18. I also agree with Molly that ignoring bad behavior can often times be our best option, especially when dealing with strangers or casual acquaintances. It gets trickier though, when the relationship is an ongoing one, or when we’re dealing with someone who is providing a service to us. I don’t want to ignore the people that I come in contact with on a daily basis (the store clerks, the waiters/waitresses, the bus driver, etc). I enjoy the friendly comradery in these casual interactions and always appreciate the little kindnesses I encounter. I think it dehumanizes us when we’re ignored, just as it dehumanizes us when someone treats us with an obvious lack of respect. I’d rather stop going to a particular store or restaurant (and have stopped) rather than continue to be insulted. Other times, our choices are not so simple.

    At the end of my mother’s life, as she lay dying, I experienced some pretty rude, insulting behavior on the part of the care facility’s “administrator”. But because I had no choice but to deal with it (my mother’s well-being was at stake), I chose to control the way I responded. Instead of taking the bait, I remained calm and refused to be sidetracked from my priorities by engaging in a pointless power struggle with an unevolved person. I invited others into the room to participate in our “discussion”, knowing full well what to expect and wanting witnesses in case it got really ugly. Everyone else in the room said they wanted to punch the guy out, but ultimately I swallowed my pride, and managed to get through it without doing or saying anything that I’d later regret. I didn’t go along with what he was saying, but neither did I argue with him. I just couldn’t allow his behavior to become my main focus.

    I’d be lying if I said it didn’t bother me; the Scorpio in me obsessed over the situation for many, many months. Ultimately, I’d like to get to the point, where I don’t even let it bother me on the inside. I’m still a work in progress.

    • Thanks, Melo, Joyce, LB, and everyone. This is a great and productive discussion. It makes me think. I seldom get rude comments, because I do know how to put people in their place in dignified manner that is not rude in return but makes them feel like two cents. I don’t know how I do it, exactly, but you might get a clue from the fact that I have Leo Rising.

      Where I run into trouble however, is in medical situations where I don’t put up enough resistance when I’m not getting the proper care. It’s become authoritarian heirachy where the real health care decisions are made by untrained insurance company staff, and nobody down the line gets to question it, so by the time you get to clinic staff like receptionists, the more arbitrary and rigid everyone is. Donna

      • LOL…Leo Rising explains it all to me. Every Leo I know seems to have the ability to put people in their place with just the right word. Puts me in mind of the type of person Dixie Carter played. You didn’t cross her. I just thought of her because I saw the news about her death.

        I know what you mean about the medical community. It is very frustrating to have receptionist tell you the Dr wants to see you in two weeks and when you ask why, they say because the Dr says so! How dare you question me. Well, after this month there will be a few Drs who are getting “fired”. They no longer work with us, but give orders that we are expected to follow…no questions asked.

      • Oh, funny! You pinpointed it–I just looked Dixie Carter up in AstroDataBank and the time is a little iffy, but she does have Leo Moon. Those are the real queens of the zodiac, the grand dames. Donna

      • Boy, with my Leo Moon conj Pluto in 11th I feel ANYTHING but like a grand dame! Linda

      • Maybe you’re just not as much of an antique as me–you’ll grow into it, perhaps! If it’s in the 11th, maybe it describes some of your friends/former friends. Donna

      • Hi, Folks, since boundaries seem to be a topic so many of you are relating to, I just put up a new post with links to 10 previous articles on Skywriter on boundaries, bullying, and related topics. It’s called Boundaries 201: Ten Tools for Neptunians. Donna

      • I don’t think it’s Leo rising. I think it is your VERY strong Mars conj Pluto on the Leo Asc. I have Leo rising and Leo Sun conj Asc in the 12th and a very weak Mars. I am extremely shy and introverted as well as highly sensitive. Speaking out has not been a desire or option for me. My invisible tiger helps me out.

  19. Donna, I have a 62 Neptune score but I don’t get much grief from store or other employees, much less them acting too familiar. I think my Pluto/Sun conjunction and my Uranus direct on the MC gives me a don’t mess with me too much vibe.
    My boundary problems tend show up with those a bit closer to me such a friends and co-workers and my housemate’s family members.
    I am a Libra Rising and Cancer Moon and Venus and can default to nicey-nice when I feel threatened.
    My boundary problems are with women. I have no idea how to tell other women to back off or to stop abusing me. I was verbally and emotionally bullied by other girls when I was young (about age 7-16) and still find that many other women use sniping as a technique to get their way.
    I am a very straightforward yet polite sort and am behind the door as to such behavior.
    Once I was an adult, I didn’t have such problems with women until I moved South. I have seen such gossipy, snipey, snide, jealous behavior from so many women here that I always amazed that I am dealing with adults, not teen-agers.

  20. Excellent post. I can identify with almost all of it.

    ‘When I state my boundaries clearly and people continue to cross them, I sever the relationship. It takes too much life force to fight “energy theft” which goes on under the table, when the other person is either in denial or oblivious to the transaction.’

    I really like this reminder, thanks. I’ve had more than one experience where I’ve stated my boundaries, and instead got further attacked for doing so, i.e. I tell the person that it is not acceptable to say/do something to me, and I get the ‘well, I wouldn’t have done it if you didn’t ask for it’. For a long time, like you, I ‘buried the truth in my self-doubt’. I always ended up wondering if it was really *me* somehow that provoked this behavior.

    Now, while I don’t advocate not being firm about boundaries at all, I don’t always buy the argument that sensitive types simply *let* people walk all over them — that it is our fault somehow that these people (invited or not) decided it was okay to crap on our turf. One doesn’t crap anywhere one likes, whether or not the other person is a doormat. But yes, I acknowledge that the unevolved will always exist – now I try to recognise them quicker, and to call them out quicker, failing which I try and cut the cord quicker too. Rather than waste a lot of time and energy wondering if I could somehow have ‘saved’ the situation by being nicer/more tolerant/kinder, and so on (so very Neptunian?!).

  21. Wow! What a terrific topic. I too am a Neptunian type. With a stellium of planets in my 11th and 12th house. Sensitive is an understatement. However our “blessing” works, I do feel responding, drawing boundaries is a sticky subject for us.
    Interestingly enough, this is an area that I have been working on intensely for the past 3 years. I constantly “talked” myself away from my feelings. I also talk too much (Sagittarius on the third house) whenever I am nervous. So I sounded, looked, and spoke as if I was terrified or just plain blithering. My face showsd all my emotions.
    I can relate to the subject of public employees, especially cashiers, talking way too much, or getting way too chummy. Actually feeling invasive. Too often, they try to elicit a specific response from me, that quite honestly, I don’t want to share at the time. Or discussing their private lives, events, etc, while I the customer, just stand there paying their company for info, quite frankly I don’t want to hear. For Pete’s sake people, put a lid on it! I don’t mind kindness, courtiesness, or just plain good service. But please, leave your drama at home. Whatever happened to professionalism?
    As far as a response to what works with those “invaders” of our personal space. I agree, the fewer words the better, BUT sometimes a comment (in jest – you know – or not) often helps.
    I have learned to just plain ignore comments. That SO annoys them. It depends on my mood.
    I loved all the helpful hints. Stares, silence, jokes. I think using them all works.
    As for working on issues before they take place. That is of course helpful. But as Donna stated, people will invade our space whether we draw strong boundaries or not. Flexing our “psychic” muscles is an ongoing task. The more we practice listening to our gut, the more we love and respect ourselves, the more powerful we become. Both inside and outside ourselves.
    Absolutely loved this post!

    A Virgo too!

  22. I think our modern American society has lost its sense of boundries in general. Just look at all the people airing their dirty laundry and such on talk shows, so-called reality tv and many people’s obsession with the private lives of others such as celebrities.
    The Twitterverse doesn’t help; where everybody and the doggone dog tweets everything including what they had for lunch.

    • How true…and add to that those loud people on cell phones. I am always wondering why we have so many so called privacy laws yet people will tell you everything while talking on the phone in public.

      I for one despise the “reality” shows as they are fake anyway. Do not like any of the talk shows that tell all. Do not like the celebrity gossip things either.

      Is this a common feeling for those of us with a lot of Neptune?

      • Susie, The blushing crow for me as far as loud cellphone yakkers were a woman who was telling her gynecologist all of her personal hygiene problems (think stinky, yucky!) and the guy who was ordering stolen porno DVDs and jewelry right on the morning bus!
        Of course, they compete with idiots who get in loud, expletive filled arguments that can be heard a block away and then tell you “This is a personal call. MYOB!” if you complain.
        I am so over drama freaks!

  23. There are so many rich experiences and sub header subjects in this exchange; I’m thinking of a follow-up article at some point to cover more of your many topic threads started here. Thanks to all of you—and to you, Donna, for the “201” post with existing articles already on your blog to give us Neptunians more tools for easy access. I am learning so much with you.

    For now, a few topics beg comment! One thing it’s often hard to be as a Neptunian is objective. We experience these things in the gauzy psychic and feeling realms. They live in the unseen and are hard to get a handle on. It takes a real step back to put them in perspective:

    1. I use a phrase that maximizes good boundary setting while minimizing “shaming, naming, and blaming.” That phrase is “I’m not comfortable with …” It describes your feelings, and you don’t even have to say it aloud to a boundary-crosser for it to be effective. In fact, the first person it’s best to say it to is yourself. When I can focus on that instead of a knee-jerk reaction to someone, I can take that “pause that refreshes” and probably avoid acting in a way that only escalates an encounter that already feels icky to me.

    2. Taking a tip from the no shame, name, or blame phrase: It’s probably best not to focus on the other person’s intent but rather on the quality of the energy. This neutralizes the encounter. (I won’t say I’ve been super successful doing this except on occasion!) Your self-conversation would go something like, “Icky feeling alert! Boundaries pushed. What should I do to turn this energy in another direction?” This leaves the offender and his or her intentions out of the loop. It puts you square in the driver’s seat and takes the ick out of it by making it not a personal insult but a challenge in moving energy—just like t’ai chi or feng shui. I’m honestly not sure if it’s our job to teach others a lesson or not. I think that may vary to a person and to an encounter. When we act on this non-judgmental energy level, the best behavior will likely come out. The direction we get in the moment might even surprise us. If the other person is meant to learn from the encounter, I suspect that’s set up and just happens if we neutralize and follow intuition.

    3. I’m somewhere in the middle on the idea that we draw these encounter to us. I think we do, but I think that many of us, sadly, have learned to pack some judgment around that concept. Everything is action/reaction, and we might be encountering boundary crossers for reasons other than a weak character or being a sap. The last thing a Neptunian needs is more guilt or shame. Most of us already have an overdose. The idea that we draw it is valuable; only if we do the same as in #2—take the judgment out of it. We may be simply learning where our boundaries are. As Neptunians, we often take years learn that about ourselves. Anger is often the initial reaction of boundaries crossed; perhaps we’re learning how to work with anger or other emotions. I’m convinced the dream and encounter this article was based on were not only for me. I felt they happened just as much because I was meant to write about them.

    4. Several threads of our conversation speak to the lack of boundaries in the American culture in general, as reflected in “reality” shows, loud personal cell phone conversations, etc. I don’t advocate being unfriendly. On the contrary, I like pleasant conversation with store personnel as long as it keeps at my level of personal comfort and willingness to reveal myself. Most of us set a tone for that, but sometimes, the other person doesn’t notice it or is oblivious to it. The Internet definitely contributes to it. This alone would be a great topic for another article. How do we keep healthy boundaries in a world where people increasingly run around naked psychologically?

    5. Last for now, without going too far afield on the topic, I want to refer back to #2 for a minute. Once I attended a UFO conference because I was getting an intuitive nudge to learn more about the topic. I had no idea how hard it would be on me as “a sensitive.” I had no personal relationship to anyone there—I went alone and knew no one. Yet one of the speakers got so inflamed with fear about hostile aliens he was certain were among us, I felt like he was stabbing me with a knife in my solar plexus. I could not take this personally. It was pure fear, and my sensitive energy receptors just picked it up in its full fury. Perhaps that’s the nature of many of our Neptunian encounters. Our radar is so acute; we are picking up someone else’s pain or other issues. All the reason more to work on neutralizing it. This really isn’t off-topic. Unwanted energy is another form of unidentified flying object. Sometimes, we’re just the landing pad.

    Blessings and strong auras!

    • Great ideas and observations, Joyce! Thanks for bringing this topic to our readers. What you said caused me to wonder about something. If we are the sensitive ones, then maybe the insensitive ones who don’t recognize boundaries are among the Neptune challenged. Maybe they honestly lack the capacity and life training to know what a boundary is and what it feels like to have someone trample your boundaries. Maybe they’re not all just being jerks, maybe they’re emotionally illiterate. Donna

      • What a great insight, Donna. That strikes me intuitively as being highly accurate. I mentioned in one of my comments that the old expression came to mind that people who offend in this way would have been called “ignorant” when I was a kid. Ignorant was also another name for illiterate. I think you are truly onto something with the concept of emotional illiteracy. Thank you!

      • Anecdotally, the ’emotionally illiterate’ ones I’ve encountered seem to have Saturn issues – for example Saturn unaspected by personal planets, or the individual not dealing with Saturn somehow. It may be that I’m overly conscious of Saturn myself that I’m sensitive to boundaries being transgressed (I have Saturn opp Neptune).

        Anyhow, just thinking aloud. Seems like one can’t ignore Saturn when talking about boundaries. I think there was an article here about Saturn in Libra and boundaries some time ago.

      • Thanks for the reminder, Hitchhiker. Yes, Saturn is definitely the planet that knows how to set boundaries and limits, still another reason we couldn’t do without it. One of the “bummers” about Saturn transits, is that other people start setting boundaries where we ourselves haven’t been conscientious about it….our own boundary transgressions quickly become apparent. We all can have blind spots where we cross over other people’s boundaries.

        I remember ages ago when I was first hearing about the concept of boundaries (probably in Adult Children of Alcoholics meetings). After assimilating some of it and pondering it, I said to an older friend, “I think maybe having good boundaries is just a matter of good manners.” She said, “You’ve got it!”

  24. As I’m reading these awesome comments, it occurs to me that we’re talking about, in large part, energy vampires. I totally changed my thinking about boundaries once I taught at an alternative high school last year, working with kids who’d been traumatized and had serious mental health issues. Not to demean the situation- for many of them it really is dire- but what I experienced was like one of those B-grade zombie movies – a crowd of zombies lined up to suck someone’s life out. The teacher I replaced couldn’t work anymore b/c of chronic fatigue and bells palsy. Good lord! I knew I had to do something really different for myself!

    I don’t think we necessarily invite those situations, but we do offer a free source of energy. In its best sense, it’s healing. But when it’s come one, come all… not so much! I bet folks don’t even realize they need a fix. People develop routines to cope with their lives and use daily drama as a way to feel better. As soon as you engage, you’re compromised. Grounding, tapping, flowing their energy through your aura, draining it into the earth – lots of ways to sidestep it that don’t sap you. I’ve improved a lot, though when I get tired it’s still a struggle. Cheers! Kerrie

    • Insightful observations, Kerrie. Yes, the desperate can be energy vampires–one reason I left social work for full time astrological practice as soon as I could. I am reminded of the era when I taught astrology classes as a volunteer in an alcohol treatment center. It was wonderful–their Neptunes were so eager for spiritual growth! But I’d learned some techniques for recognizing energy drain, and I actually felt it one day in class.

      I immediately drew a line of white light around my wrists and ankles–kind of like a neon tube–to keep the energy from escaping. One of them gasped and said, “What was that? Something just flew around your wrist?” I’d done it so many times by then, the psychically attuned could actually see it happening.

      Another time, I went to my chiropractor right after I’d run the lines around my wrist and ankles for a client session. The chiropractor couldn’t find my pulses. Finally, I realized what had happened, and I shed the white light tubes so he could go ahead with the diagnosis.

      Try that visualization when you’re around energy vampires, folks. It may not be a strong protection at first, but with repetition, it becomes stronger and more real. Donna

  25. This has been a great discussion…thanks everyone. I find that I am agreeing with everything, which is amazing. Can’t wait to go over the 10 tools for Neptunians.

    I have one more thing to add that I think might fall under boundaries, but will let everyone else decide.

    I have having a hard time with Drs who don’t seem to think that their patients have boundaries when it comes to the Drs.

    Lately it seems we are at their beck and call with no regard for our feelings, how much unnecessrary running they make us do, and their insensitivity. (one Dr told my husband if he wouldn’t take a drug that makes him ill that he probably won’t live long enough to worry about other issues) I wish I had a good Leo laced comment for him, but I was speechless.

    After all these discussions I have decided it is time for the Drs to understand their role in our health care. It is not as the dictator, but as a partner.

    But, as a last note, maybe I am picking up the Drs really feelings…or lack thereof…towards us as patients.

    Am I off the mark here or does this fit into this discussion?

    • Totally, Susie, and it extends to other levels of medical staffing as well–but not much, in my experience, to alternative health care. I do think, however, that part of the trouble is that dedicated medical personnel have had their jobs dehumanized by all the regulations, computerization, dividing patients into bits and pieces, and most especially the total dominance of insurance companies in making health care decisions. Donna

      • That is so interesting that you said dividing patients into bits and pieces, as that is exactly what my husband and I spoke about this morning. There are so many different Drs, and all with their own opinions and the patient is caught in the center, just going around in circles. And you don’t feel any of them care about you as a person. It is easier to prescribe a pill and send you on your way. I am finding the nurses are more accomodating lately with information and advice.

        And Joyce I think it is great that young children are now feeling the need for manners. That tells me that there is hope for a shift in things.

        My husband has had eye surgery and people will still run right into him in public places. There is no consideration for anyone’s handicaps either. It is so sad. I told him today that he might be better off to continue to wear his eye patch in hopes that some people will see it and realize he can’t see well. I try to hold his arm so it is obvious that something might be amiss when we are in a store.

  26. Donna, I love your last several shares. What a great tool those light tubes will be in my future. Your personal anecdotes about them shows how powerful they are! The comment about boundaries and good manners gives further support to my previous theory about my friend’s daughter. E. is not even 10, a Scorpio with Neptune square Venus, and she chose to spend a Christmas book store gift card on the biggest volume on manners she could find. Poor kid’s just trying to find some boundaries in an increasingly boundry-less world.

    So true about the stress physicians are under. I had a fabulous primary care practitioner that finally left the HMOs behind because she couldn’t stand how they forced her to practice medicine.

    • I think what happens is that the doctors, nurses, etc. that start off being really dedicated and wanting to serve wind up feeling so powerless to give optimal care…and having to deny care that’s not covered by insurance…that they shut down over time. In the empathic ones, the heart chakra develops a wall so they don’t have to feel the emotional (or even physical) pain of their patients. Donna

      • I think a part of the picture for this entire topic might be related to generational influences. In the medical field, the paradigm shift IS happening – might end up being a restoration of the wisdom of the ages that was lost in the wake of ‘professionalism’. Not long ago docs and nurses were trained to be, well, downright NASTY in the interest of being professionals.

      • I have been talking to more Nurses lately and they seem to be much more helpful than the Doctors. They feel that they have been taught to work with the patient and find out what they want to do. Where as the Drs have not been taught this way. I think there’s is more a do as I say attitude.

        We are now stuck in limbo because of our(MY) annoyance with the Drs and their inability to be flexible. And, I think I pick up the Drs impatience with me quicker than husband. But I have been vindicated in the last month as there were 3 nurses/or nurses family members who told me they did not like the Dr that I have become disillusioned with.

        Parins comment on the Dr made me laugh as that is what I do. I call them on everything and let them know if I am not iin agreement. And I have done the “say that again” to someone who made an inappropriate comment. LOL If I deserve the comment fine, but if it is uncalled for look out. I think mine is my Mars/Uranus conjunction, and possibly the Sag Moon too. I think my mouth is very connected, or is that disconnected to or from my Sag moon.

      • Make that either theirs’ or there is. Gosh I am getting bad with my English as I get older. I feel like I am unlearning everything I ever knew. LOL

  27. Really, we Neptunians are quite vulnerable. At times we can “glow” vulnerability. We don’t want to punish offenders. We just want them to stop and everybody be nice!

    I chased a doctor down the hall when he abruptly left the room before I finished with my questions. I’ve shot back with biting comments to taunting bullies.

    Do unto others? You bet! If I was acting like the left side of a horse’s behind, I’d like to know!

    People who mumble unacceptable utterances are doing something that has no place in human interchange. Yeah, sometimes they’re just looking for someone to push back but a total stranger is not the person for that no matter how well trained or sensitive we may be.

    Ask them to repeat what they said, more loudly please? Either they will, or they won’t. Just that one action stopped my mother’s mumblings because actually, she was ashamed to say out loud what she had mumbled. Communication is improving and improving and we’re solving things. She’s ACA and is now, at 76, coming to terms with it. I had to overcome having it literally beaten into me that my judgment was flawed, I would never be able to evaluate how I was being treated and must always ask my parents, and that all families were like ours. No, they weren’t either.

    If you’re in a service establishment, the same thing works but ask to see the manager if the person refuses to repeat their mumblings. Guaranteed, that’ll take care of that!

    In an open gathering one would be better off to ignore. A rude comment might be the beginning of a fight you wouldn’t want to be in.

    Oh, and never engage anyone you can’t identify ahead of time as someone you can defeat.

    Sad, isn’t it, that just being us is a battle? But for me, it is. My sole weapons are my Sag Sun mouth and my Scorpio Moon. Yet, they serve me well.

    Please excuse me now whilst I go sharpen the sting on my scorpion. LOL

  28. Hi Everyone,
    I posted this on Joyces blog and thought I would repost it here for feedback.

    I have Neptune rising with the Moon not far behind in 12th in Libra with Mars Libra in the 12th. So….I have struggled with passive agression all my life as a doer and receiver. As a recovering addict I have to try to be as honest as I can in all my affairs so that has helped to become in tune with my irritations, annoyances etc and voice them. Also, like many others posting, I can sense what people are feeling.

    My boundary story concenrs a co worker (in a job I just begun with teens in treatment) who would make comments about me and my competence. Since the girls could get out of control, we had a ratio of 1 staff to 3 girls. She would say things like, sure you can handle this? when only 1 girl would be in the facility. Her sidekick would cackle appreciatively. Finally after a couple of times, I said, ‘that sounds like a cut.’ She said “what” and I said her comments were not appreciated –and I felt she was ridiculing me. Oh no, she replied, never would I hurt another human being, as she is a ‘spiritual, evolved soul’ who smokes cigarettes. But of course she always said it in front of her sidekick staff and not those who would know her game.

    She said she was sorry and I said I would accept that. Later I overhead her she say that it was my interpetation, not her words, that caused the to do. She wanted to define my boundaries! (I don’t work there anymore.)

    This experience taught me to take my power back, Pluto, and confront those who ‘tease’ to remedy their own feelings of worthlessness. It was a very difficult thing to do also–way too much Libra in me– I could feel the energy rising in me, wanting release and if I had not said something that day, the next episode would have been explosive. I stopped her from making inappropriate, demeaning comments to me. She’s a bully and I finally stood up to her and have stood up to several bullies since.

    One co worker would raise her voice as if in anger when I asked her a question so I just started doing the same back. She stopped bullying too.

    I come from an alcoholic family and boundaries are totally skewed which means there are none. I work with alcoholics/addicts too so this is always an issue. (Pisces on the 6th)

    You are right, it is important to check our radar and if something doesn’t feel right, it is probably an invasion. You know, sometimes I just ride over the intrusion and the negative energy is absorbed or deflected without making a dent.
    Thats when it is so awesome. I do not give them any power over me, a Plutonian thing. I do not give my power away, another Plutonian thing. I am a Scorpio. But no matter, all signs have personal power.

    I read in one of Dane Rhudyards books once to try to have the brightest light possible so that arrows of dark negativity are just burned up in the light. That’s a good approach too if one can keep up the energy.

    Love your blogs Donna and Joyce, and thanks to all who commented,

    Much appreciation and warm regards, Kathleen

    • I’m glad you shared this, Kathleen. It’s by hearing what others with a strong Neptune have done to empower themselves in setting boundaries that we learn how to do it ourselves. And learn that it is OKAY to do it.
      Growing up in dysfunctional families, we’ve had really bad role models in boundary setting, and we need all the good ones we can get. Donna

  29. Ditto, Donna! And I want to add, your family doesn’t have to be classically dysfunctional to be Neptunian. My family was extremely loving and supportive; however, they were giving to a fault, bleeding hearts till they bled themselves dry. Talk about bad examples! I think I only figured out how not to do that last year, and I still struggle with it at times.

    “Goodness” overdone is its own form of dysfunction. It’s often not as obvious as some of the other forms, but it can model putting yourself before others to an extreme. My much older brother was always in trouble and bled our parents emotionally and financially. Since I was viewing this in my formative years, that’s the love style I’ve had to overcome. Pass the “Do Not Cross” crime scene tape!

    Thanks for your continued heartfelt and instructive comments.

    • Hi, Joyce, having read your manuscript, I well recall your vivid descriptions of your family. One thing that’s not generally known is that Neptune is often connected with the 4th or 10th house in the charts of adoptees, and I’ve also seen it transiting those houses in the charts of adoptive parents at the time of an adoption.

      Before I left NYC, I was in an almost full time healing practice, and I worked with pulling information and wounding out of the chakras. I was surprised at how powerfully the root chakra of a woman in her 40s who was adopted still reverberated with the wrenching separation from her birth mother, whom she never knew. Donna

      • Just one additional thought on the connection between Neptune being connected with adoption and this issue of adoptees connecting with their birth parents. Before the internet (a Uranian development), it was very rare and difficult for adoptees and their birth parents to find one another, and so I was trying to think what that would correspond to. It seems like it has developed more during the years that Neptune has been in Aquarius (1008-now) and Uranus has been in Pisces (2003-now). What do you think, Joyce? Donna

  30. Yes! Another issue besides my Neptuney Nice to a Fault adoptive parents. My Neptune is in the 6th closely square (2 degrees) Moon in the 9th. As I often say, one mother abandoned me (birth mom) and the other smothered me (adoptive). I was one of those adopted adults who thought I didn’t want to know or reconnect with my birth mom till one day the grief in my subconscious came knocking on the door of my psyche so loudly; it could have woken the dead. Neptune Moon can represent an overly watery/smothery or absent/disappeared mother. In my case, each of my mothers. (Do I have Moon issues, ya think? My Moon is also out-of-bounds. Excellent article by Steven Forrest in current TMA on that topic.)

    If any readers are adopted, you might find interesting some discussion of our special skills with synchronicity in my post on Hot Flashbacks, Cool insights called “Queen of Synchronicity:” http://tinyurl.com/queensync

  31. I agree totally! Finding birth parents has become a matter of course during these Neptune and Uranus placements. I found my birth mom in ’86 before we all lived on the Internet. Just got through watching Bill Maher, where he was talking about how lying is antiquated. You can’t get away with it anymore, because all sorts of documents and honest exchanges are so available online. He was mocking, as is his style, people who lack the smarts to see their lies are transparent.

    Frankly speaking, adoption as practiced when I was young was living a lie. We all pretended I was my parents’ biological child. They never even told me I was adopted. I found out accidentally at age 8 and told them I knew when I was 18. Oddly, enough, it was Barbara Hand Clow in her Chiron book published in the late ’80s who predicted the end of secrecy … which fits right into this discussion. The time has come for the veils to be lifted. Modern, open adoption is much healthier for all involved.

  32. Hi Joyce and Donna. I haven’t visited in awhile but found this post via link from The Oxford Astrologer.

    Your story is *ahem* familiar to me. I’ve been on both sides as the one who felt the underlying energy and the one who can be overly familiar. I tend to tease people to show affection and loosen up uptight personalities, often unconsciously (Neptune in Sag Rising sq MC in Virgo and oppose Mars in Gemini in the 7th). In person, I “read the room” before I do it. Online is where I tend to get in trouble by being overly familiar. Some enjoy the humor while others who don’t know me or can’t see my face take it as a jab when it’s not.

    I think it’s something that will just happen as people get their signals crossed (a very Neptunian thing) because some people are more sensitive than others. My rule is that if someone’s giving me bad vibes because of what they’re saying, then I ask them what do they mean. Sometimes, misunderstandings get cleared up that way. Other times, my feeling that they’re passive-aggressively attacking me is confirmed. Sometimes, both happens!

    Virgo energy is naturally worrisome and Safittarian/Geminian energy is naturally flippant. Meeting my own energy in others has taught me a lot about boundaries.

    Use the best of Virgo energy to clarify the situation.😉

  33. I have moon in 1st gemini and neptune sag in 7th with Venus. I do feel things—vibes—knows intentions beneath the pretty words, and sometimes predict outcomes.
    I try not to depend on “feelings” sometimes, because I am more receptive with the phases of the moon.
    Don’t have problem shutting people off when they are out of line either. Sun, Mars, and Mercury conjunction in 9th.

  34. I have seven aspects to my Neptune in fifth house sag. My Neptune is also conjunct my moon(emotion) and Jupiter. I feel a lot of energy around people and yes I find myself being hypersensitive to many peoples demeanor and comments. I am also a late reactionary. I get a lot of premonitions. Donna I read your article on Jupiter, moon and Neptune conjunct. Very interesting.
    Saba

  35. Pisces rising, w/ 8th house Neptune the highest degreed planet in my chart, swirling 12 aspects from Libra in my western chart. These pages speak close to home. We are the Elusives. To ourselves, to others, to both. ‘Matter’ is our challenge… spanning from the the physical through the spiritual on into the nameless-formless — where does one truly end and the other truly begin? Animals accept us completely, humans welcome us or rejected us upon contact with no middle ground. People stand us in an inner circle, or act as though we don’t exist. It’s taken a lifetime to understand how important it is for me to set boundaries and stick with them. On the whole I find when I speak my truth it’s best spoken calmly, barely above a whisper, and straight to the point. I do not expect others to change, because they don’t. But they can stop speaking when they hear an insightful comment. Sometimes, I may feel moved to separate my body from the ‘group,’ which has become easier since I’ve decided it’s not my job to create anything for anyone else. One person I met who was advanced in the martial arts said he walked into a room I was in and didn’t see me. He called that Ninja energy. His observation was the beginning of a new understanding for me, of my home within invisibilty, within self, which is, afterall, the entirety of awareness where the essence of everyone dwells. My responsibility is to deal with what is on my plate. With that as a guideline the world becomes do-able. On my computer, my pages open to http://www.mpeters.de/nisargadatta/ where I am reminded that I am already home. Sending love to my peers.

  36. Hello Donna … this is a veeeeerrrry late post in coming :{D

    Last year I took up the sword against my ‘family curse’ – more on that later – and became a certified NLP Master Practitioner, Hypnotist, and Time Line Therapy Practitioner. My mentor was, and still is, into some “funky stuff”; astrology, numerology, tarot. He made a spontaneous comment during the NLP Master Prac training that I could do with establishing firmer boundaries … and be aware of Neptune’s placement in my Natal Chart. So I thought, “I’m a curious and open-minded fellow, let’s take a closer, deeper look. My sun sign is Pisces with Sagittarius Ascendant … big slabs o’ Sagi and Scorp throughout my chart, together with the Moon, Neptune, and Jupiter in the 11th House.

    After generating the natal chart and beginning to learn the symbolism and meaning beneath the Signs, Houses, and Aspects I discovered some patterns in my behaviors which were deeply uncomfortable to recognize. I then inspected my family’s astrological patterns … and recognized the Collective Shadow at work there too. Pluto in Virgo the 8th House, together with the True North Node (i.e. Soul Purpose) of Aquarius in the 2nd House of Self-Esteem (and the Gateway to the Underworld…), Leo in the 8th House South Node … I am going somewhere with this, as I’m currently writing stream-of-consciousness-style-eee. Something about the male line of my family didn’ ring true…

    I looked at that cluster of planets and signs again in the 11th House in the Natal Chart … Moon, Neptune, and Jupiter in Sagittarius, plus a pungent whiff of Scorpio in the 11th to add a hint of Hades’ Realm to the mix. With so much going on in the 11th, I wanted to understand the why, what, and how of people ignoring my personal boundaries. So I looked a little deeper, and came across your article by ‘coincidence’.

    I’d been playing the savior/enabler in so many of my relationships … that I’d allowed people to ‘latch on’ for want of a more fitting term. A spat of self-given visual squash parts integration sessions, utilizing astrological imagery to communicate and resolve issues of balance and boundaries in relationships with the Other (I’ve now tenanted planets nor aspects in the 7th, which is curious…), has cleared away those unconscious filters. I’ve come to recognize the need to be lovable by others, and so I unconsciously sought ways and means in the 11th House of friendships and communal affairs to sate that need, as family hadn’t.

    Hades together with Cronus… I now refer to those ancient images as Plouton – Lord of Inner Wealth … have been stern, and occasionally harsh, teachers and task masters. The greatest up-side of this awakening is in my ability to recognize, then to explore to know, what is troubling someone.This has required recognizing my own tendencies to ignore others’ personal boundaries, and then to harness the shadow aspects of the ‘porous’ nature of my own psyche to enable others to grow out of the old skins of their lives.

    Have a great day! :{D

  37. Reblogged this on Insights from the Rose and commented:
    Love Donna Cunningham’s ‘Sky Writer’ site. As a strong natal Neptunian myself Joyce Mason’s post here is very useful.


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