Posted by: Donna Cunningham | April 14, 2010

Readers’ Insights into Neptune and Boundaries

©4-14-10 by Donna Cunningham, Joyce Mason, and Skywriter Readers

A current theme on Skywriter is Neptune, and exploring that foggy, soggy planet inevitably led us to a lively exchange about boundaries. Neptunians often struggle with making and maintaining good boundaries.  They struggle—and yet in the process of learning about boundaries, a number of them have found valuable techniques and perspectives that they shared in the comment sections of several of the articles. One especially profound exchange began in response to guest blogger, Joyce Mason’s article, Boundaries 101 ~ A Course for Neptunians.   Here are a few readers’ insights that were particularly illuminating: 

 Neptunian’s Psychic Sensitivity—Gift or Boundary Problem?

One reader says, “If I go with my gut on most things, I am always better off. When I second guess myself there are more problems.  I can pick up on the problem people in a room. And I always seem to be able to read them better than most. I don’t fall for con artists because I am on alert when I meet people like this. I know when I hear BS.

“I also sever a relationship if people will not respect my feelings, or boundaries. It is easier than trying to play their games. It drains me too much. Dealing with them puzzles me also. I don’t want to be mean and I can’t seem to keep my cool if I do confront them. And rarely do I get anyone to listen to me anyway. So I end up always being angry around these types.”

Another notes, “One handy (yet at times very difficult to negotiate publicly) ‘gift’ I have is to walk into any environment and quicker than snot, know immediately if there is a person there with great buried rage.”

My reply: “We Neptunians are often psychic sponges, but I suspect the type of things we most easily pick up on are 1) connected with the Neptune aspects in our charts and 2) connected with the emotional potholes in our homes growing up. If anger was a dangerous sign in our family dynamics, we develop a kind of radar for that. If sorrow was a danger signal, we develop early detection tools for that. And so on. It’s a survival tool in a dysfunctional household.”

 Navigating Neptune—Readers’ Takes on What Works

A reader ponders: “I have strong Neptune influences. It’s strange but I pick up on people’s “vibes” instantly. What they say is only secondary to what my impression is of them. I have to be careful of two things; 1.) Not having “eggshell” feelings about them. By eggshell, I mean being too fragile and getting my feelings hurt. In other words, developing a thick skin. There are a lot of morons in this world; 2.) Not sponging up the bad energy from people I spend a lot of time with. I have to admit, I’m not very good at this. I’ve had to work with very negative, dark, bad energy people. It can suck the life out of me. As much as I’m aware of my tendency to soak up vibes, I can’t maintain the force field forever.”

A reader cites Saturn as a good antidote to too strong a Neptune: “After years of people telling me I was too soft hearted, too sensitive, too thin skinned, and needed to grow a backbone, I finally got the message that being too ‘nice’ invites aggressive people to push your buttons. Lucky for me, I have planet Saturn conjunct my Moon, and found my way to draw the line and set boundaries for myself, even tho it was hard to do so. So I think using one’s Saturn is a must for all those with powerful Neptunian energy, because Saturn will help one say ‘enough is enough’, and ‘stop right there’ when people go too far with teasing, ridiculing, bullying, or whatever is offensive to you.

Another suggests, “With my 12th house Virgo stellium (sun, Venus, Mercury) I was thinking about the potential ‘antidote’ yesterday for myself — feeling at times like a hippo with its two completely different sets of ears — one hears above water, the other below water. My balance is better between the information I receive if I pay equal attention to info I get through my two sets of ‘ears’!”

 Ways of Setting Boundaries against People who Don’t Get It

One reader advises, “I find that in order to set strong boundaries for a Neptunian the first thing is not to harbor any doubt about what’s happening and, secondly, to withstand the anxiety of meting out the proper justice.  I used to hate hurting people but now I’ve learned to moderate it somewhat — and also I’ve learned not to care too much if someone aggressive gets singed by my fire.

“Here’s ONE good way to set limits: don’t say anything. Just concentrate on everything you feel and give the offender a look laden with all that icy rage. If you want to really take them for a loop, here’s a trick I learned from my mother when someone made an inappropriate joke around her. She would smile and laugh at first and then very slowly as she was looking straight into the offender, her smile would freeze then melt away into a frigid and cold gaze that she would then hold until the offender squirmed and walked away. It sounds very theatrical but it is VERY effective and devastating.”

Another respectfully disagrees: “We all know that responding with anger is just what they want and fuels their fire even more, and no response at all is often easier said than done. Simply KNOWING that we ARE the “bigger” person in the situation and having that essence SOLIDLY permeating throughout our aura or existence makes so much of a difference. It starts to actually deflect us away from those people in the first place.”

A reader ponders, “I wonder if the work on these issues has to be done before the type of event you mentioned. What I mean is that an experience such as that has come around in order to strengthen your boundaries – the test hurts, but encourages you to stand up and take notice next time.

“If you put the work in on yourself, you create an invisible vibe, or energy field that will no longer attract that type of experience – because you no longer need it. Just a theory really but I have noticed it working in my own life. Still a long, long way to go though!”

My reply: Good question. I think the work goes on before, during, and after, because boundaries don’t get established once for all time…they are situational and porous and need frequent reinforcing sometimes for a long time until they are firm.

“Too, I think what we are actually reinforcing when we work on boundaries is our energy field/aura. There are many, many things that can create holes in our auras (childhood abuse/codependency; surgery; accidents; addictions; alien interference; psychic cords; etc. etc) and when there is a hole, it seems to need a lot of work. “

Readers’ Suggestions of Resources

In reply to the invitation to share what worked for them, several people suggested books and internet resources. I must stress that I do not have personal experience of any of them.  Look into them if they appeal to you, but keep your B.S. meter on, and if you sense that it’s not for you, pay attention. 

“I ‘m taking an inexpensive online course with psychic physician Dr. Judith at the Daily Om called “Combating Emotional Vampires.” The course seems apropos to the subject matter of Neptunians and their boundary issues. I scored 62 on your Neptune test, so I think it’s a course that could be very useful to me!”

Another notes, “If you haven’t yet read Donna Eden’s book, Energy Medicine, you might want to add it to your bookshelf. She provides tangible & daily exercises to do that clear your energy field and strengthen the tears and other damage done from previous experiences. I found it invaluable!

 “I stumbled onto Emotional Freedom Technique, (a.k.a. EFT or tapping) that even a 4-year-old can do. Same wonderful results- once the stuff is cleared out, the result seems to be that that kind of behavior may swirl around you, but doesn’t land. No idea how or why, but I love the effect!”

 Joyce Mason, author of the article that inspired these comments, adds: “I’ve started reading an invaluable tool, a book called “Are You Really Too Sensitive?” by psychic Marcy Calhoun. I was introduced to Marcy’s work in an interview of her in Yoga Journal in the late ’80s. She has some exercises that involve declaring your space by saying your name aloud in different ways. This is the most powerful “decording” exercise I have ever used.

 With her typical enthusiasm, Joyce re-joyce-es: “Wow! I want to scoop you all up and gather you in one place– the first of many meetings of the Empowered Sensitives! What a treasure trove of experience and ideas you’ve shared. I resonated with every single comment. You have done everything I hoped for by writing this article–got a dialogue going that is truly our own Boundaries 101 course. Thank you so much, and I hope to hear more from you both here on Sky Writer and my blog, The Radical Virgo.”

 What about you, readers?  Do you have any tips or resources for making sound and healthy boundaries?  What’s worked for you, and what was your journey like?  Give us the benefit of your experience in the comment section. 

 More Articles Related to Boundaries on Skywriter:

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Art credits:  The images from this post were found at WikiMedia Commons.  The sign for a town in the UK named Boundary, was uploaded to Commons using Flickr upload bot on 20:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC) by Victuallers (talk). Boundary of the fog (the hill comes out of fog in the higher altitudes). Rigi Culm, Switzerland is by Audrius Meskauskas. Boundary wall, Ensay. This wall extends across the width of the island is by Bob Jones/.


  1. This was a great summary Donna. You really picked the major issues out of all those posts and it is something I will print out so I can refer back when I need a refresher course.

    Yesterday I was putting out vibes to another Dr who realized I was not buying what he was selling, even without saying a word. He was nicer than most, but I still felt he was saying do what I say, as I know best. And, even though he may be right, I am going with my gut, and my gut tells me no. There is more research to be done.

    Thanks for empowering me. Now the next chore is to stop second guessing my decision. LOL

    I am also going to work on using the white light technique, or find a similiar technique that works for me.

    • Thanks, Susie, there was such a wealth of helpful info and observations in that set of comments–including yours–that I felt like I only scratched the surface. Awesome exchange! Donna

  2. Donna–agreed that this is a great and helpful summary! Thanks so much for posting it. There is so much group wisdom to be had on difficult issues. This is one of the strengths of the blog-and-comment format. This post has been a premier example of blogging at its best. I’m glad my article could help stimulate such a valuable discussion. Thank you for sharing it with your readers.

  3. I second that motion!!!! 😉 Well done and thanks to everyone who shared and gave their insights…..this was soooooo helpful and reinforcing!! And a HUGE thanks again to Donna and Joyce for initiating it all!!! I feel a renewed sense of hope in being able to strengthen my boundaries.

    • Wonderful, I’m glad the winding Neptunian journey we’ve been on this past couple of weeks has helped. That’s why I wanted to preserve these suggestions and observations from Skywriter readers–I thought it was an exceptional interchange. Donna

  4. A very life-long codependency and some recovery, but a very current need to set a boundary around my self; a very newly recognized need. I find myself wanting to serve, serve, serve to the point of sacrificing energies and health. Being a double Leo with No. node and Neptune conj. in the first; this will be no surprise to any of you (or me) Thank you all for more Light and awarenesses on the need for a boundary around and for self.

  5. I want to add that anger is not necessarily a bad or negative emotion. Violence is bad, yes, but anger, in and of itself can be very healthy and, what’s more, necessary. The Civil Rights Movement came about because African-Americans were ANGRY (and rightly so) at the abuse they were constantly subjected to. Anger tells you: Enough is enough. It fuels you to do what you need to do to change an unacceptable situation. There is nothing wrong with that.

    And, ime at least, no, the people in my life who were disrespectful or abusive were not acting out of a desire to get me angry; they were acting out of their own selfish desires and didn’t care if they hurt me. Sometimes, a lot of times, in fact, they were completely unaware and they did this stuff unconsciously. The 400+ lb. guy who pushed me out of the way on the subway didn’t do it because he was hoping to get a reaction from me; he did it because he was determined to push me out of the way to get a seat. When he looked up at me meekly (!) after sitting down, he was clearly hoping he could get away with it. My cousin’s husband who snuck into my room at night when I was 16 so that he could molest me was not wondering if he could get me angry and get a rise out of me. He plain wanted to take advantage of me, come on. (No worries, he didn’t succeed. I am a Leo with grand fire trine, after all.) Both of these people were clearly trying to get something out of the situation and the only appropriate response was ANGER so that they knew without a shadow of a doubt that what they did was wrong, that they ought to be ashamed of themselves and that if they tried that again, there were going to be consequences. Whether or not I was the bigger or the better person was not the point; the point was protecting myself and, unfortunately, the way to do it was to get them scared.

    Let’s please call a spade a spade and get it very clear that sometimes anger is perfectly appropriate and correct or people WILL step all over you. I’m sorry if that sounds harsh but I think a lot of Neptunians already have a hard time accepting that they have a right to stand up for themselves. A lot of Neptunians have a hard time acknowledging their anger appropriately because we think that we should be forgiving and sweet and nice. So I don’t want to sound dogmatic but I need to affirm this for those people out there who somehow associate “anger” with “bad” and who therefore can’t give themselves the right to set limits. This was a huge thing for me all my life and it’s cost me years, money, and, worst of all, self-respect. Okay. Rant over.

    • Glad you wrote, Eme. There ARE times to fight fire with fire, especially when your personal safety is at risk. As a recovering New Yorker, though, there are also times when the best way to deal with an agressor is to get the hell out of harm’s way. There are lots of crazies out there. Donna

    • Eme, thanks for standing up for anger! When people cross a line blatantly and are oblivious to how they impact another, sometimes a blow-up is the only language that gets the message across. My Pisces ex had a great expression, “Don’t kill a flea with a cannon.” When people are merely pesky or annoying, that’s one thing. When it’s far bigger than a pesky flea, the full artillery may be necessary. (In a moment of levity on this serious subject, I realize I just try to avoid “flea-jerk” reactions.)

      Bravo for standing up for yourself. The more I read these responses, the more I feel what we’re seeking is balance and wisdom in handling these encounters—and, of course, the best response will vary with the details. Consider the inspiring biblical passage from Ecclesiastes many of us have heard since childhood, “To everything there is a season.” It talks about there being “a time for war.” Jesus, the spiritual model for many people, even lost it with the moneychangers in the temple.

      You are so right about major personal and cultural progress being catalyzed by the righteous anger of individuals. Anger has its positive place and time. I think every person with Neptune prominent is compassionate and tends to meld with others, often resonating more to the needs of the other person than their own. Therefore, it’s harder for us to put our own need for compassion and consideration as an equal factor in the mix. My thought is that every Neptunian needs to know where to find his or her Mars and to how to use it when needed. Thanks for setting an example.

      • Thank you, Joyce!

  6. That is true as well, Donna. This is when being Neptunian can be a very good thing too. You pick out the crazies and you can transcend the situation.

    • I used to have a list of survival skills for New Yorkers, and one of them was the ability to diagnose insanity from a block away so you could cross the street. (Others included knowing how much to tip for a variety of services and how to recognize if a guy is gay or not before you fall in love with him.) Donna

  7. This is a fabulous post – I was inspired by all the different ways people cope with their boundary issues. Kudos to you Donna & Joyce.
    I believe the relationships we have with others are at the heart of our growth. What I had to learn was – what we need is all inside us and interacting with others is a way of getting to know ourselves better.
    Of course – I am an Aries – ’nuff said.
    Still – I find following my instinct, gut, intuition as true is a whole lot less draining than constant self doubt. You know – like when people deny what’s really going on and I think I must be wrong.
    These days – I am willing to be wrong and still honor myself. AND GET THE HECK AWAY FROM THOSE PEOPLE WHO TELL ME I AM NOT OK JUST THE WAY I AM. Whew – another Aries moment.
    Thanks to all who commented.

  8. It was so nice being validated. I cannot even begin to tell you how much. I have Neptune in Scorpio in the 4th house in a T square with Mars on the ascendent and Jupiter on the descendent, and Inconjunct Mercury in the 11th house. I have a pisces south node with Chiron conjunct it in the 8th house. Talk about being able to walk into a room and know what everyone is feeling. Thank You!

    I am considering moving by the sea to give that Neptune in the 4th house something positive to ruminate on.

    • My life dream would be to live at the ocean. No worldy ambitions, just a cottage by the sea. Donna

  9. Is it a Cancer thing to want a cottage? Mine would be a Kinkade type cottage in the woods with a stream or creek running by it. I love the water going over the rocks.

    I often wonder if I could survive being away from people more often. I do enjoy people, but the negativity can get to me and I need to be refreshed.

    My Pisces Moon husband does this by just going off and sitting alone by himself. I used to think it was me he was getting away from until his Sister said he used to do this all the time as a kid. He would climb up a tree and just sit there, while everyone looked for him.

    I also have a person who I enjoyed being around occasionally until they got some serious problems and now I am picking up too much negativity from them. I think I will try the white light technique or wear a cross to keep the energy vampires at bay.

    LOL..just got to thinking that Mercury Rx is coming. I tried to submit comments 3 times and lost all 3 posts. A typo in the e-mail address!

  10. Donna, I am with you. A cottage by the sea sounds really nice right about now. Kat

  11. Thank you for this most excellent entry! With time I’ve found the value of shielding myself from what takes away my energy (yes, creating boundaries). The downside is sometimes there is an advantage to being able to “soak things up”; sometimes being able to empathize is a strength but we also need to learn to back off when it takes too much than what it’s worth.

    I think I may had commented on this before, but I’ve found that those in abusive, oppressive or dangerous situations get a strong intuition for danger. In some ways, it might help us avoid or minimize those types of situations. On the other hand, it also helps us gravitate to those types or situations so we can repeat past events (yikes!). This, too, is a double-edged sword!!

    • Oh, yes… on a related topic, in today’s news, neuroscientists studied the brains of elite soldiers. A part of their brain has more activity because they are able to discern anger and subtle facial expressions of anger when the neurologically average do not. I wonder what this may say about people in abusive scenarios?

    • Good observations, Kristy, and you’ve touched on what was a dilemma for me in my years of active practice, in both astrology and healing. I often wondered if shutting down (or at least dialing back) the high level of empathy would impair my ability to do the healing. (But, man, it was icky when I was around sick people–or in the years early on when I was a social worker in a prenatal clinic and got to experience second hand morning sickness. Ewww!)

      I still am a strong empath and can be inundated by others’ physical and emotional pain when I forget to sheild. I have prayed endlessly to have that capacity dialed down to manageable levels, even shut off, for now that I don’t work with clients I can’t see what purpose it serves. Donna

  12. This blog post could be forwarded to everyone with a strong Neptune – I am thinking of a couple of people I know with Neptune on the Ascendant that could use this!

    I also notice Neptunian types are very good with Empathy. While that can seem like a curse, it is actually a psychic ability, just like how others with clairvoyance see things, or a clairaudient hears things. Empaths FEEL things and often experience it as if it were their own. What has helped these types deal with this is when they have the “message” that they tell their spirit guides that “they get it” and ask them to start clearing away these sensations. If they don’t, they can continue to get pulled in!

    I have also found they need daily psychic hygiene, especially if they work in fields where their empathic healing is used somehow. One friend of mine bathes every day in a bath with Epsom salts, baking soda, sea salt, and most importantly, about a cup of vinegar in the bathwater. She uses essential oils too that are purifying and uplifting, and bathes a minimum of 20 minutes, and even dunks her head 3 times at least, then showers afterward. She tells me she MUST do this, or she will accumulate debris that instantly wears her down, and it isn’t even hers.

    • Every day? She’s not an empath, she’s a sponge! It sounds like it would be really hard on my thin skin.

      When major psychic gunk (and emotional healing residue) has accumulated, I occasionally do something which is rather dangerous and scary but really is a heavy-duty cleanser. You have to have a very sturdy old cast iron skillet with a wooden handle. You put in a very thin layer of epsom salts, pour a very thin layer of rubbing alcohol on it, and light it with a wooden match, preferably a longer one. Very carefully, wave the flame through the area you want to clear, both high and low and in all the corners.

      I do NOT recommend it if you’re at all unsteady on your feet or your hands shake, and the path needs to be clear of any object you could bump into, no kids, no pets, no distractions of any kind. I only do it when the psychic/emotional funk has gotten really drastic. Don’t use the skillet for anything else due to the chemicals. (You can pick the skillets up cheap at garage sales or Goodwill.)

      I also do it when I (or someone close) moves into a new place, preferably before the furniture comes. A coat of fresh paint in a new or old place helps also. For the chemically sensitive, btw, paint fumes can be cleared out with a dish of vinegar sitting out for a few days. Donna

      • Haha, she does EXACTLY that, but she has a cast iron dutch oven with legs on it, and she uses it only for this purpose – it works GREAT!! (Yes, she does house cleansings too and she taught me that one hehe!). She has tough skin too 😉

  13. It’s been a bit of the while since visiting; as ever there is plenty goin’ on here. The recap of both the initial Neptune tips and then the comments are helpful. A recent long Neptune square Mars diluted many boundaries for me, and as you pointed out early in your comments, the challenge of Neptune does open up the holes of early wounds.

    In retrospect, the harsh lessons learned while we lived beside the ocean day and night, living as wandering ghosts, homeless in my home of origin … I see the powerful teachings about sensitivities Neptune offered. Multiple Chemical Sensitivities for those of us who live with a heightened degree of severity have the challenge of sorting through the original wounds and for me, a trusted guide and third-person was necessary to see how to re-tool my ability to express and attract real need. It’s a process and without guidance a gal can easily be lulled into old addictive ‘sweets’ that do nothing for the longer term.

    May I reprint a portion of this post, and link this post to an upcoming MCS Awareness Carnival over on VardoForTwo in May. It’s such a great full view of Neptune’s affect and for those of us who are ‘sensitive’ in big and oh so exquisite ways this could definitely be an angle worth exploring.

    • Good to hear from you, Mokihana. If it were just my writing in that post, I’d be delighted for you to reprint it–in fact if you quoted only my words from that piece and the comment sections of the other articles in that series on boundaries, it would be fine. But I’m hesitant to say yes to quoting from the Skywriter readers whose comments I put in this post…it’s almost a boundary issue in itself. They expect people to read what they wrote here on this blog, but you’d have to contact them individually for permission to put it on a different blog. Do you see what I’m saying? So quote me from the various comments I made–there’s plenty there in the bits and pieces–but not them. Does that work for you?

      Neat to hear that you’re group is doing a carnival. That concept is where we got the idea for the blogathon. Donna

  14. Thanks Donna I get your message and appreciate the example of boundaries in such a practical way.

    I will look at your quotes only and get back to you about including it as part of our Carnival. It was the astro blogathon that inspired me to craft our Canary Carnival … Thanks so much for the feedback, valuable input.


    • Thanks for understanding the principle, Mokihana. I’d be delighted for you to use my own stuff. I think I have a couple more posts in me about this topic, but I’m gearing up to switch topics for a while.

      One thing I would add, if I haven’t shared this with you elsewhere, is that Neptune transits are definitely connected with increased sensitivity on all levels. The cases of chronic fatigue and chronic pain I’ve seen seem to develop often under those transits to the health houses–especially Neptune to the 1st. Neptune to the 6th often corresponds to sensitivities to toxins in the workplaces. Neptune transits to the Moon, especially a Virgo or Cancer Moon, can correspond to increased food intolerances. Donna

  15. An update, folks, Diane Lang of Libra Seeking Balance has a great post on this topic: Observations: Neptune, Boundaries and the Drama Triangle . In it, she discusses the triangular cycle of victim, rescuer and persecutor that fuels so many codependent relationships and creates bad boundaries. The link for Diane’s Post is Donna

  16. Reading this gave me a lot of food for thought on my own fuzzy Neptunian boundaries, which include, among others, Neptune conjunct the ascendent in the 12th house. In fact I’ve been doing A LOT of healing work on myself and have seen my boundaries improve the deeper I go to release old gunk.

    Funny enough as I was reading this article, I got a bitchy email from one of my clients who was not happy with the chart she ordered. Of course the Neptunian side of me instantaneously felt her anger like a blow to the gut. Now here’s the key — do I fall back on my old Neptunian boundaries or new boundaries?

    Old Response would have been to feel the rejection deeply, be psychically unsettled, bend over backwards to please the angry client at the expense of myself.

    New Response is to immediately put up boundaries, say to myself that I can’t help/save everyone, and say to her that I am sorry she was unhappy and offer a refund.

    Maybe there’s a better way to handle this situation, but I feel for me it’s a big step for this Neptunian to not fall back on old patterns and to establish healthy boundaries and realize that I cannot help/save everyone.

    • HI, Katie, I can completely identify with how it felt when the client wrote back like that. I think no matter how good we are, we can’t please every client. If a session didn’t go well–like those rare clients that we just can’t read for some reason–I would cut it short and just tell them that I wouldn’t charge them for the session, since I apparently wasn’t connecting with them. Or, if I heard from one like that later, I did give them a refund. It’s better than having someone out there badmouthing you.

      Another thing I did that helped a lot to prevent situations like that was to get a very clear picture in advance of the session as to exactly what the client wanted and needed. I did that in the initial phone call, and then again at the very beginning of the session, in case they had thought of something else. If the client wasn’t certain what astrology could do–1st reading, say–then I’d go over the kinds of questions the chart could answer. And I would keep my preparation and the session itself focused on those issues the client raised.

      What this does is to make it more certain the session meets the client’s needs that they have identified. If you don’t know what they want and they themselves haven’t thought it through, then the session is less likely to satisfy them. I hope that helps. Donna

      PS. Is it just me, or are emails absolutely porous in terms of transmitting the emotions of the sender. Brrrr!!

      • Donna, as always, thank you for your wisdom! And thank you for inspiring the next generation of astrologers.

  17. Donna first I want to thank you for the articles you write for us. They are amazing and I learn a lot with them. Now, as for Neptune…My God what confusing planet. I have Mercury, Saturn, Venus and Sun in the 12th house, and Venus is in mutual reception by house (12th) with Neptune in Libra in the 3rd and squares all the 12th house planets. All my life I had to ask myself is it me? Is this reality? For a very long time I denied my intuition. Fearing that what I felt was just Neptune plaing tricks on me. I still have this difficulty to trust my instincts because maybe 8 out of 10 times they are dead on. It’s those two that trouble me and make me doubt myself. By the way Neptune is also semi-square my lovely Moon in Leo separating from a conjuction to Pluto but applying to a conjunction with Mars and then Jupiter.Oofff! Has you case see there can be a lot more doubts than believing in my perceptions. I have learnt to live with them with a grain of salt but it is not easy. Thank you for sharing all these comments. I have to go through them again. Paulette

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