Posted by: Donna Cunningham | October 9, 2010

Readers Ask: Q&A about the 1st House and Ascendant

©10-10-10 by Donna Cunningham, MSW

We’re engaged in a series of posts where readers ask questions about a particular house of the astrology chart in the comment section and I answer them. This time we’ll look at the 1st house.

The sign on the cusp of the 1st house is known as the Ascendant or Rising sign, and is given—along with the Sun and Moon signs—when people describe themselves astrologically.

Any planet within 10 degrees of a conjunction to the exact Ascendant was shown by the Gauquelins to be among the strongest features of the chart. This is true whether it is a 1st house or a 12th house planet.  But what, exactly, does the Rising sign show about us?

 The 1st house, as a whole, including 1st house planets, shows the first impression people get of us.  As we all know, first impressions are often false ones, and yet they are difficult to overcome. Still, it’s what the person has become comfortable showing to the world and, as such, is a set of defenses for coping with new people and new situations. However, it is important to note that this outward impression is a facade and not who you really are, unless the Sun is near the Ascendant.

The set of behaviors depicted by the 1st generally grow out of family dynamics and roles defined in the family in childhood or the early environment. It becomes the automatic response to social situations with all but the most intimate of friends and relatives.  It can include one’s personal style, fashion sense, and outward appearance.

The 1st house—along with the 6th and 12th—is also one of the health houses, as it can show certain innate strengths and weaknesses of the physical vehicle.  Transits to the 1st may signal health challenges as well as changes in outward appearance and expression.

So, Readers, you are invited to ask questions about the 1st house in the comment section below this article

I am happy to entertain more general questions like these: 

  •  How would a planet that squares the Ascendant change the Rising Sign picture?
  • How is Mars in the 1st conjunct the Ascendant different from Mars in the 12th conjunct the Ascendant.
  •   If the 1st, 6th, and 12th are all health houses, how is Saturn in the 1st different from Saturn in the 6th or 12th?

(Yes, I’m aware that most people are really asking a question about their own or a loved one’s chart, but at least they have the class to make it a more general question that will interest other readers as well.)

That sort of thing, phrased in 25 words or less. For this post only, no long personal stories and no back and forth discussions among readers. Here, I’m looking for the kinds of questions and discussions you’d raise in a class or at a conference.

There’s one earlier post in this series that I may refer to in my responses. It answers basic questions about houses and how they are set up that apply to all houses. If so, here’s the article I’ll be referring to: Readers Ask: Basic Questions about the 12 Houses.

After answering 30 questions, I’m closing down the comment section.  I enjoyed the session and hope you have too.  If you didn’t get a chance to ask, some of the questions may throw light on your own.  To read other people’s questions and answers—scroll down below this article to the comment section.

 More posts in this series:

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  1. Hi Donna,

    What if a person has an empty 1st and 12th house but has nearly every planet aspecting their ascendant?

    Thank you 🙂

    • Planets aspecting the Ascendant both strengthen and modify it, so in a case like this, the empty 1st wouldn’t be so “blah.” My teacher, Richard Idemon, used to call an aspect to the Asc or MH an “outlet” for that planet, meaning a means for it to express itself. Donna

      • Thank you Donna!
        That clarifies alot 🙂

  2. Hello Donna,
    You have a great site here!
    One of your own questions has me fascinated, actually.

    How is a planet conjunct the ASC from the 12th different from the 1st? Especially if the orb is very small? (Your example used mars, what about pluto?)

    My second questions is, do planets aspecting the ASC alter appearance as much as planets conjuncting? So if there is a, for instance, a neptune sextile/trine/square, will that give traits of pisces like a neptune conjunction?

    • 1) Both a first house conjunction and a 12th house conjunction are strongly noticeable to other people–something they remark on right away when the meet you.

      However, the 12th house is often either repressed or denied by the person himself/herself, so the person does not realize that that is what they project to other people. Let’s say it’s Mars, then the anger, agression, or competitiveness is unconscious, and yet very obvious to others, so it is more difficult to deal with. People might be leary of getting close to the 12th house Mars, as they would appear to be out of touch with their anger. (A 12th house conjunction does lend itself to the Shadow Side.)

      2) I’ve read or heard a lecture long ago (by someone who specialized in it) that planets aspecting the Ascendant can affect the appearance–e.g. one from Mars might give a reddish tinge to the hair–but I’d think a planet conjunct would have a stronger affect.

  3. Hi Donna,

    I have a couple of questions.

    Is there a difference between fast and slow natal planets aspecting the ascendant ?

    And how do the slow transiting planets manifest themselves when aspecting the ascendant ?

    I have also read that the cusp of the tenth indicates how people perceive you when they first see you… so I was wondering what was the difference between that perception and the one people have when facing your rising sign ?

    Thanks a lot Donna, have a nice day ! 😀

    • Lordy, you all have multiple questions. And they’re good ones, so I hope other people come back and ask the ones that don’t get answered.

      Slow-moving vs. fast moving planets aspecting the Ascendant? I am guessing you mean inner vs. outer planets. (As opposed to, perhaps, Venus when it is moving slowly because of going into or out of retrograde phase, as it is right now.)

      Okay, the outer planets are more weighty, not just because they are so slow, but because they represent huge issues that the collective is dealing with as a whole. The person who has an outer planet on the Ascendant or in strong aspect to it (square, opposite, trine) embodies that issue and forces people to deal with it.

      Thus a person with Pluto on the Ascendant–because of the way they look or present themself–may bring up issues like the use and abuse of power, healing, transformation or sexuality for a great many of the people they encounter.

      That’s tough for the person to deal with on a life-long basis, but they are forced to work through the dilemmas that planet presents, and in so doing, they may become a healer or transformative figure. Donna

      PS. I doubt that anyone else is going to ask your second question, so let me just say briefly that the 10th is related to career or to public status, so it would be a public perception based more on your accomplishments (say, the title of Mayor or football captain) and the role you play in your community, not just your looks or manners or taste in clothes, which is the first.

      Or, on the other hand, the 10th could also show a bad reputation, based on some misdeed, public humiliation, etc., so that people say, “You know, that Smith kid that got expelled from school for hitting the teacher.”

      • Oh yeah, sorry about the wrong terms, English is not my mother tongue and I have made an incorrect translation. I indeed meant inner VS outer planets.

        Thanks for your kind answers. 😀

  4. Would you please elaborate a bit of what sort of influence Chiron may have when conj the Asc (or in the 1st hs) and respectively aspecting the Asc from a different house?

    I know very little of Chiron and my 9th House Moon cannot grasp it as yet. When in touch with something that represents the body/health (like the Asc), would Chiron actually point to physical “wounds that never heal”?

    thank you!

    • I’m no Chiron expert, but I would say that since the 1st is a health house and has much to do with the body we are born into, Chiron in the first could show some sort of congenital physical difficulty. Maybe not a handicap, per se, but some sort of physical sensitivity or vulnerability that might come out or be exacerbated during a transit.

      Each sign of the zodiac has body parts associated with it, so Chiron’s sign might show the vulnerability. The effect would be stronger if conjunct the Ascendant than if in the 1st but not conjunct. Donna

  5. Hi Donna! I have a few questions …
    If the ASC is how we are perceived or present ourselves, how important can it be?
    How would a 12th Neptune in conj with Asc play out (Scorpio)?
    Also North Node conj Asc (Asc Cancer, NN Leo) work?
    And aspects between the MC and ASC? (Sextile, but any aspect, really).
    What if the ASC is unaspected?

    • LOL!! You are all full of multiple questions today. Give an old lady a break! I’ll stick with one.

      “If the ASC is how we are perceived or present ourselves, how important can it be?”
      It is important because people judge us based on it and thus respond as though their impression were the whole story about you. Thus a difficult Ascendant or 1st house placement can create social barriers to acceptance.

      Let’s say the person has Mars on the Ascendant and comes across as aggressive (maybe as a way of masking that they really are afraid a lot of the time). People don’t sense the fear, they see the person as a threat and may react with either hostility or by being intimidated, thus making it hard to have a real connection.

      • Sorry, Donna! But … can I please ask just one: The NN in conj with Asc – how would that play out?

      • The North Node is something you’re working on developing, while the South is something overdeveloped, too easy, the path of least resistance. So the North Node with the Ascendant might be a “coming out of your shell” project, prompting you to put yourself forward rather than shyly hiding your assets and personality.

        I know the next question is going to be, “what about the South node on the Ascendant/in the 1st?” Well, obviously the opposite. This would be someone who is always pushing themselves into the limelight, constantly showing off, or putting their views out without considering others. (That, of course, would put the North on the Descendant, challenging you to put your partner’s needs ahead of yours and considering them rather than making it all about you. Donna

      • Could South Node in the first indicate a person who’s most comfortable going it alone, who finds it difficult to collaborate with others, even though that may be the more rewarding path?

      • Yes, the South Node is one of our comfort zones, also possibly a guilty pleasure, while working to master the territory indicated by the North Node is ultimately the more rewarding of the two because it’s a hard-won accomplishment. Donna

  6. Hi donna .

    1) How is Saturn in 1st house conjunct AC, (both in scorpio) expresses itself?

    2) Are the planets not within 10 degree orb (but a few more degree away) are important as those within 10 degree orb (in reference to AC)?

    3) Does a 1-2 Degree difference switches things off and on or its actually a sustained waxing and waning of an applying /separating aspect/effect?


    • Too many questions, so will pick one. Saturn in any sign on the Ascendant would have a sort of super-Capricorn rising feel to it. The person would present as serious, even (depending on the sign and aspects) somewhat somber. Might appear older than their age, and would give off the impression of being very responsible, discliplined, capable, and so on. Saturn in Scorpio is a blend of the energies of Saturn and Pluto, so that’s a heavy mix to have on the Ascendant.

      However, the Ascendant is NOT who you are, but who you APPEAR to be. Whether you were really all that disciplined, capable, etc. would depend on the rest of the chart. Let’s say the person with Saturn on the Ascendant had Sun, Mercury, and Neptune conjunct in the 6th, then their work performance wouldn’t live up to the first impression. Donna

      • Thanks. 😀
        I will prolly conserve other questions for other posts. haha!

        BTW can you share your general views/info about a chart with multitude of stelliums all across ascendant & 1st house

        (IMO a bundled Chart- the rare ones)
        may be share some specific links with similar charts being discussed.


      • How would a planet conjunct the Asc be different than a planet opposing the Asc? thank you.

      • First of all, the house emphasis is different. The planet that opposes the Ascendant would be either a 6th house or a 7th house planet rather than a 1st house planet.

        If it’s a 7th house placement, then the opposition would signify dynamics in the closest relationships, possibly one where the partner is opposed to some of the personality quirks of the native and wants to squelch them. Or there may be personality quirks that get in the way of getting into a committed relationship in the first place. this depends on the planets and signs involved–if relatively easy, it could be that the partner makes up for some of the person’s lacks or weaknesses, creating a balance that did not exist before.

        If it’s a 6th house placement, it might be a health or fitness issue, since both the 6th and the 1st are health houses.

        Or, since this house also depects work habits and job routines, the outer personality might be getting in the way of job performance or the person may not be presenting themself in a manner that enhances job success or even getting hired in the 1st place. Again, the sign and planet would tell you more. Uranus in the 6th opposite the Ascendant might present as a rebel/maverick in a way that would make an interviewer hesitate. Donna

  7. 1. What happens if you have more than one planet conjunct the ASC? Do they somehow combine their energies resulting with a new quality or does the stronger one win?

    2. Do you have any thoughts on Eris conjunct the Asc? I wasn’t able to find much information, although I remember reading an article where the author claimed Eris is prominent in the horoscopes of feminists.

    3. And finally, your example question – what’s the difference between the planet conjunct the Asc and the planet squaring the Asc?

    • lol.. another one with a question triplet.

      Give a halt guys.. I (Scorpio n Pluto (empathy powers)) just got a confirmed (hashed) vibe reading Donna’s mind , who is thinkin to stop these question answer series now and here..hahaha !

      Kiddin Donna! 🙂

      • LOL!! You surely did read my mind. I was just thinking, “what was I thinking???” Donna

    • More multiple questions–and me with the late-onset ADD/HD known as retirement!

      Let me pick the one with multiple planets conjunct the ASC, because it would also touch on Fxguy’s question on stelliums.

      Assuming that the planets are conjunct one another as well as the Ascendant, the first thing you need to do is to figure out what the conjunction of the planets means and how it operates in the person’s life. The conjunction blends the energies of the planets involved, in much the same way two metals form an alloy when you melt them down together.

      A Jupiter-Neptune conjunction, for instance, is very different from a Jupiter-Saturn conjunction. So you first have to understand the effect of the two planets blended.

      THEN, imagine that that combined energy is what you present to people who encounter you for the first time. And that first impression colors how they perceive you forever after, unless you work hard to let your true self shine through. Quite a job, isn’t it? Donna

      • “…it would also touch on Fixguy’s question on stelliums”
        Hey dear…i aint a “fix”ed guy 🙂
        I am pretty mutable (just like u mutated by name addin a Nucleic acid “I” between ‘F’ and ‘X’ BTW its FX (a short form)

        As regarding knowing what multi-planet-combo-blend is like, that also is surely a big task just like for the native to present him/herself in pure form in presence of so many planets around ASC.
        I even find it difficult with my quite a internet-search skills to search about aspects involving >2 planets & on that chart they are onto some year-end party joining each other in close neighborhood of 3 houses 😀

        Thanks again.

  8. I’m trying to understand how planets cj the asc can be a facade, and not how we really are- for example a 12th Uranus closely cj asc will be the first thing someone would see in a person, but the sun in the 2nd would be where the person’s actual focus in life will be, and the person might not see themselves as a genius although others do. OK, makes sense! Thank you!

  9. Morning Donna!
    In your experience: how a planet conjunct with the asc but in the next sign works. (in my case, asc late virgo and pluto in early libra, moon is near pluto but not conjunt asc) Hope I make sense, haven’t got my morning coffee…

    And, if/when possibe…. the last question you proposed: ‘If the 1st, 6th, and 12th are all health houses, how is Saturn in the 1st different from Saturn in the 6th or 12th?’

    • When more than one sign is in the 1st in general, but especially in the case that the planet conjunct the Ascendant is in the next sign, both factors work. We’re all made of more than one thing, and the complexity is part of who we are.

      However, in my view, the planet overrides the sign. Pluto conjunct the Ascendant is what counts, sort of a super-Scorpio coloration of the personality, stronger than either the Virgo or Libra qualities. (See the description of Pluto conjunct the Ascendant in my reply to Karen.) Donna

  10. What about Pisces intercepted in 1st house how would the Neptunes transit starting in April change other peoples perception or would it just change the person?

    • In general, Neptune transiting the 1st house gradually increases the person’s sensitivity to the environment, both physically and psychically, and this becomes more intense the longer Neptune is in that house, but especially while transiting planets in the 1st or 6th house. (Read an article here: ) An interception doesn’t make the transit any weaker or less intense.

      No one alive has experienced Neptune in Pisces–at least in this lifetime–so any predictions are very speculative and based in theory rather than actual knowledge. That said, it sounds like Neptune unfettered, free to be an Uber-Neptune.

      All of us –especially in the early degrees when the collective will first be experiencing it–will need our spiritual practices, self-awareness, and a clear idea of how to recognize the self-deception and addictive pull of Neptune. There are many articles about Neptune transits on this blog. Donna

  11. What makes a planet (say Saturn) passing over the Asc. any different than a planet passing from one house to the next? For instance, is Saturn passing over the Asc. any different than Saturn in the 1st?

    • Most of the house cusps are arbitrary and varying according to the house system used. However, there are 4 house cusps, known as the 4 angles of the chart, (defined in astronomical terms) that are the same in most systems and are power points in the chart, as much as any of the planets in terms of natal and transiting planets aspecting them. They are the Ascendant (1st cusp), IC (4th house cusp), Descendant (7th cusp) and Midheaven (also called MH or MC, the 10th house cusp.)

      When one of the slower-moving events crosses over any of the 4 angles, you will definitely experience an event, quite likely a life-changing event. That is not true of the intermediate cusps (2dnd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 8th, 9th, 11th, 12th), so they aren’t “alive” in the way the four angles are. If you haven’t been aware of them, try tracking past transits over your angles to see if you can recall specific events. Donna

  12. If ASC & MH represent gateways for planetary energy, how would you interpret a heavy-hitting slow-moving planet, such as Pluto, conj ASC w/in a chart where this planet is square MH & the Sun sign’s ruling planet or a personal planet, such as Venus, which is also conj MH, thereby sq both ASC & its conj slow-mo planet?

    • I assume you’re asking about your own chart or someone close to you, and as I explained in the intro, I don’t interpret individual charts on this blog. As for Pluto on the Ascendant, read my reply to Karen. Donna

      • I apologize, Donna, as I really thought there might be other readers interested in such a prominent square in their charts as well. I’ve seen this pattern in many charts (perhaps not Pluto & Venus) & only wished to get your expertise on its manifestations, aside from those of general difficulties . I respect your guidelines.

  13. Do difficult aspects of the progressed ascendant to natal planets coincide with health problems? Like say, a square to Saturn or Pluto?

  14. When your progressed ascendant conjuncts your ic and the planet there would that cause a life event with both the angel there and the one planet which is already strong being on an angle?

    • Most likely, yes, but as I mentioned, I don’t use progressions, only transits. No doubt there are blogs that deal with progressions more knowledgeably. Donna

  15. Hi Donna! I have two, they’re both personal, but please, please do them!

    1)4th house stelliums are adviced to focus on domestic/family issues, 10th house stelliums are adviced to go for it carrier-wise. What’s the practical advice for a person with a loaded 1st? (apart from ‘stop ruining my Q&A session with your personal issues’) Textbooks always get too abstract when it comes to the 1st house, so your real life approach to astrology would be much appreciated.
    2)And the second one: Ruler of MC conj. Asc.

    • I’m answering them because you phrase them in a general way, not specifics from your chart.

      1) Advice for someone with a stellium in the 1st? Well, of course, it depends on what the planets in the stellium are, but be aware of the strength of your impact on people around you and live out the highest qualities of those planets, because you can’t ever slip into the crowd unnoticed.

      Oh, and never leave the house with holey underwear.

      2) As it happens, I have the ruler of the MC conjunct the Ascendant, and it can be a career asset. It can mean it’s easy for you to get your game face on and put forth the qualities needed to look the part of someone who knows what they’re doing in that line of work.

  16. Hi Donna,

    What would the ruler of the ascendant/1st house in the 12th house mean (in a birth chart) when it comes to the perception others have of the native?

    • The person is likely to be somewhat reclusive/elusive or hiding their light under a bushel, so they may be hard to get to know. Donna

  17. What about the ruler of the Ascendant in the 9th squaring the Ascendant. For example, Scorpio Asc squared by Pluto. Being one who tries to analyze others’ charts could this mean that they have difficulty expressing themselves or perhaps even that they have a difficult time even liking themselves?

    • Weeeell. Let’s leave the 9th house out of it, and make it more general–the ruler of the Ascendant square the Ascendant. Squares tend NOT to get away with stuff that trines do. They push the qualities of the planet too hard, even a bit stridently. (You could say there’s a tinge of Mars to a square.) So the ruler square the Ascendant might overdo the qualities of the Ascendant sign in a way that gets people’s back up. And the person might not GET just why people aren’t responding well. (So in the case of Pluto square the Scorpio Ascendant, people may find them almost the Pluto/Scorpio stereo type.) Donna

  18. I am wondering about outer planets NOT conjunct the Rising —but in the 1st House.

    How would Pluto in the 1st be different from a Sun in Scorpio for example? Does that person seem scorpionic but it’s *only* appearance or does it affect the personality?

    Thank you in advance.

    • Yes, a person with Scorpio Rising or Pluto in the 1st would have an outward persona and appearance of being Scorpio-like. But, depending of the rest of the chart (that is, if there were other Scorpio elements or if Pluto had many aspects), that may or may not be what they’re like when you get closer to them.

      The same might be true of any of the outer planets. The person with Uranus or Neptune rising would appear outwardly to embody the nature of that planet, yet not be that planet at heart.

      However, one of the difficulties with many with Pluto/Scorpio rising is that they are such private people and fairly guarded in terms of opening up and trusting, so it’s not all that easy to get to know them on a personal level. Donna

  19. If the ASC plus aspects are how you APPEAR, then who are you REALLY? The Sun, aspects, and house placement?

    • The Sun is a big part of who you are, but the Ascendant might be compatible with the Sun sign yet hide or work against the needs of the Moon sign, making it difficult to express emotions or fulfill security needs. Or it might conceal some other important part of the chart, like a t-square with no aspects to the Ascendant, making it harder to find an outlet for the pressures and conflicts of the t-square. Donna

  20. Hi Donna,
    Would you put please address the question regarding how a saturn transit to the first house would be different from those to the 6th or 12th relative to health?
    Thank you!

    • Terrific question! Saturn transiting either the 1st or 6th can signify a phase where overwork, stress, and increased job pressures can put a strain on the health and vitality of the person, so they’re not different in that regard.

      However, in the 6th, you’re more likely to see physical problems developing out of occupational hazards. For instance, you might find an arthritic flareup due to long-term wear and tear of physical labor. Job responsibilities might increase due to cutbacks in the number of employees, and this might contribute to more wear and tear on the body.

      Other physical difficulties you might see with Saturn transiting the 1st might be a worsening of certain conditions the person was born with–e.g. some skeletal problem that was always a concern but not a serious limitation until now. I often recommend yoga for Saturn transits, as it’s a discipline that helps the joints and stretches out the limbs and back.

      Saturn transiting the 12th, however, is a different set of issues. You may see depression with Saturn in the 1st as well, but it can be more severe in the 12th and it could be harder to pin down or do something about the causes. Since the 12th can represent self-defeating behaviors, there could be consequences of long-time self-abuse or addictions, and yet, as tough as the bottoming out may be, Saturn also represents self-discipline and grit, so it can be a time of turning around patterns like these.

      Now, I can imagine this presenting a depressing picture for those with upcoming Saturn transits to these houses. This preview, however, is exactly why astrology is an asset. If you can see ahead that your chart looks like health challenges, then the time to start with a new health routine (Saturn) is now, so that you avoid the worst possibilities by addressing the needs well in advance. Donna

  21. I read in starwise that the place in the world where you have Sun or Jupiter rising is the best for you as this position is even better than having those planets in the MC. Since mine is in the USA I dont know. What is your experience with this aspect of ACG maps?

    • Well, I don’t know the site, but that’s not really starwise advice. You must always refer back to the natal chart to see how that planet is. Suppose it’s a very difficult Sun or Jupiter, let’s say in a t-square with Neptune and Saturn. The last thing you’d want is to move to a place where it’s on an angle.

      And whether you’d want to move to an Ascendant line or a Midheaven line depends on your goal in making a move. If you want to improve your career chances, then the Midheaven lines are crucial. If you’re looking for a relationship, it might be the Descendant or Venus lines–again referring back to the natal positions to be certain.

      To learn more about Astro*Carto*Graphy, go to There is a library there of over 50 articles on various facets of relocation. AND a list of certified practitioners. Donna

  22. Donna, how does a Venus trine ASC manifest? Can we automatically assume that this person is beautiful?

    And FYI I have Uranus almoust exact conj on my ASC but it doesn’t affect my physicall appearance at all. This is just for future reference ;))

    • I’d believe you more about that Uranus on your Ascendant if you had one of those gravitars with a photo of yourself. (Smiley face)

      A Venus trine to the Ascendant wouldn’t automatically make you beautiful in classical terms, but it might make you attractive all the same. And probably personable with a good bit of charm. Have you ever known someone with irregular features or who’s a bit homely, and yet they’re quite appealing? Donna

  23. If one has the last five degrees of a sign on the ascendant, does the following sign describe the person more than the rising sign?

    • Not really, no. Unless the second sign in the 1st house has planets in that house. You could argue that by progression you’d spend many more years with the second sign as your progressed Ascendant, but I don’t think the progressed Ascendant ever fully replaces the true Ascendant. Donna

  24. Would a first house Sun in the next sign ‘outshine’ the qualities of the rising sign? I can see an Aries Sun overwhelming a Pisces ASC but not so sure about a Virgo Sun with Leo rising.


    • Good questions, Diane. In general, I think the Sun would outshine the Rising sign, especially if it’s within 10 degrees of the Ascendant. But, on the other hand, don’t nuttin’ outshine that Leo Sun! Donna

  25. If an ASC is an active one, with multiple Major aspects and an equal number of Minor ones to it, does this mean the rising sign of the chart lends its own flavor to all those planets in aspect?

    • Hmm. You always ask good questions, ej, but they’re not always easy to answer. I’d say it’s almost the flip side of that. That each planet that aspects the Ascendant alters it somewhat by adding either a strong (in the case of major aspects like a square, opposition, or trine) tinge of its own nature or a mild tinge (in the case of a sextile, for instance) to the way the person presents themself. Donna


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