Posted by: Donna Cunningham | July 31, 2013

Still Ticked off at the Debunkers!

Last week a show debuted on ABC called, “Would you Fall for That?”  They thought it would boost their ratings to feature an episode where they did a so-called scientific test to debunk astrology.  They asked a roomful of subjects for their birth data, then pretended to have their astrology charts done by an astrologer who would write each of them an individual report based on their chart.

So then they gave all the subjects their purported individual reports and asked if the subjects agreed with the profile.  When the subjects enthusiastically agreed with the reports, the host revealed that they’d all gotten the same report and that it wasn’t from an astrologer at all, it was  one  written by a  psychologist back when the experiment  was first done years ago.

And then they all had a great big har de har–while millions watched on national tv–about how stupid it was to believe in astrology.

Hello,  People, that was NOT astrology nor was it scientific research, that, basically, was a hoax!

if you didn’t see this devastating attack on astrology’s validity, you can see it still in full if your cable has On Demand/Infinity. Otherwise, see a video here:  Would You Fall for That? Horoscopes | Video – ABC News.

stargazingkids-a2dI’ve been thinking that it would only be fair if they’d do a similar experiment with the tests psychologist give that are supposed to measure various facets of mental health. 

Give one of those tests  to a group of subjects and then  give them the  same profile they used in the so-called experiment with astrology.

And then ask the subjects if they identify with the profile, and I’ll bet most of the subjects would agree that the profile fit them.

Because probably the profile that psychologist drew up is made up of basic human feelings and traits that most of us share.  And if the response was that most of the subjects did agree with the profile, then would that debunk psychological tests?  Or just  prove that being human is…just being human.

And,  by the  way, psychology is not a true science either, though God knows they try!

I’d love to get my hands on that profile, because I’m just mad enough to do some  research of  my own!  Anybody with me?

Boy, if Jayj Jacobs and Jack Fertig were still alive, they  would kick some debunker butt! I attended a debate that Jayj and Jack had years ago with a scientific organization in San Franciso (can’t recall the name, but the members were huge skeptics.) The 2 J’s remained articulate, intelligent, and calm despite all manner of provocation, and I am biased I admit but I thought the astrologers shone far more brightly than the scientists.

(See their memorials on the Astrologers’ Memorial web page here: Jayj Jacobs and Jack Fertig.)

One of Astrology’s longest and strongest contributors is Rob Hand, who was one of the pioneers in creating astrological software and numerous other contributions.  He has written a brilliant series of articles about the troubled relationship between astrology and science here: Astrology by Hand –

Still seething, I did a bit of searching on the web, and it turns out that we’re not alone in wanting to debunk the debunkers, who are often not scientific at all in their way of examining the paranormal, but in fact are cynics and scoffers with a strong mental bias.  Here are some excellent points about debunkers written by paranormal researcher, Winston Wu:   commentsgreatdiscussion

Quite coincidentally,  but obviously under the same transiting T-square of Pluto-Uranus, Mars, the always intelligent, insightful, and readable Oxford Astrologer Christina Rodenbeck,  recently published a related article on skeptics and debunkers here: It’s Not Rocket Science. Very worthwhile reading.  

Readers, share your reactions and any idea about how to deal with skeptics in the comment section below this post.

PS. And by the way, science can bite me!


  1. aahhhhhhhhh yes, Carl Jung ( estranged pal of Sigmond Frued)used the astrological archetypes used in “humanistics” today. Frued thought everything about us came from the “id” (our Mars) <- I doubt he knew anything about astrological traits. Darlene


    • Jung’s wife was a well known astrologer in their day. I think Jung veiled his attitude or belief toward astrology to protect himself against just this sort of tirade from his psychology peers.
      If the sun can emit electro-magnetic flares which upset the weather on earth, then why can’t the same upset human systems? after all, we are electro-magnetic beings. And the Moon? Just be working in a medical office, hospital, police, and you’ll quickly find out.
      Genesis speaks of when the light and the dark were separated by God. I have been thinking about that, and it came to me. Light matter which we can see was separated from dark matter which we cannot see.

      • Good point. In fact, just the other day, I found somewhere or got an email about a new study that shows cardiac surgery has a great deal more risks when performed around the full moon. Donna

  2. This is just another cheap shot at astrology. What it does prove is that people have a thirst to find out about themselves, and that in their eagerness to do so, they can be manipulated by others. It does not disprove any aspects of astrology. For that one would need to focus on specific astrological principles, and then prove or disprove them through statistical analysis. In the end, I think this kind of journalism is as shoddy and sensationalistic as the kind of debased astrology it is attacking.

  3. Yes, rent-a-sceptic Richard Dawkins did an even stupider “scientific” experiment here for television. He scrambled some very short daily horoscopes and gave them to people to read and yes, most of them thought they were about their own Sun sign – and they weren’t! Quelle surprise…

    With the discourse at such a low level of understanding, it’s hardly worth responding. Still makes you mad though, doesn’t it?

    • Darn right, Christina! Thanks for the info. I gave up talking to ordinary ignorant skeptics years ago, but this is a public attack on our field. Donna

    • Nothing of import to add, but “rent-a-skeptic” cracked me up. Thanks for that. 😀

  4. I’m an astrology convert. My knowledge of astrology used to be as low as just the Sun signs. These debunkers only show their ignorance. My background is in engineering, and I probably know enough math, science, and statistics (but maybe not enough astrology) to design an experiment to scientifically test whether certain astrological principles are true beyond mere chances.

    99% of these “tests” are designed to show astrology doesn’t work, and the experiment itself is not well-designed because the experimenters don’t understand astrology. It’s extremely easy to show something is not there because you cannot find it, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not there.

    I really think that some tests should be done on some selected prominent astrological effects with some pre-designed screening criteria to throw away possibly cancelling factors. As long as the astrological criteria can be put down on paper, and the selection samples of population is random, and the final results can be scientifically measured or graded like in some psychology tests, then the hypothesis can be tested and proven.

    However, no modern-day scientists would want to put their names besides these experiments, even if they’re proven true later. The first guy who says Earth revolves around Sun gets hanged unfortunately.

    • “99% of these “tests” are designed to show astrology doesn’t work, and the experiment itself is not well-designed because the experimenters don’t understand astrology.”

      You are so right, Nathan, and thanks for your input. The National Council for GeoCosmic Research (NCGR) is one of the major astrology organizations, and they do have a research section that has done some good work. I will have to blog about their work someday.

      And as for getting hanged, we did have a very tragic case of a psychologist named Michel Gauquelin who, with his wife Francoise, did some very solid, well-designed research on the validity of certain principles of astrology that involved over 60, 000 timed birth charts and got some results that were at the level of .001 (one chance in a thousand that it would happen by chance).

      He was pilloried by the scientific community, and one of the groups claimed to try to replicate the results and claimed Gauquelin’s research was invalid–publicized it widely. Later it was revealed that the group falsified its results, but naturally that didn’t get much press.

      His career was ruined, and he eventually committed suicide. You can read about the research here:‎.


  5. Some minor correction to the above. The screening criteria can be tweaked as data samples are collected, and doesn’t need to be pre-designed per se. The most important thing is that once everything is said and done, the experiment must be (preferred easily) repeatable by others, and re-tested to show the same positive result.

    I went to one of the top three universities in bio-science in the USA. Some “scientists” there throw away the insignificant data samples to make the math of statistics to show significance. Some “scientists” explain their data in a fuzzy math ways. All these professors cared about was research funding, and not science. I was so disillusioned after those experiences. Science when you make up the data cannot advance, and cannot be repeated by others.

    • I subscribe to a pretty neat magazine called Scientific American Mind, and a recent issue was devoted to exploring cheating. One of the articles went into the not uncommon practice of tweaking the results of academic research. Quite an eye opener! Donna

      • Hi Donna…Love your blog and I subscribe to Scientific American Mind mags too. Scientific Research is manipulated all the time and the most idiotic research is funded (with our tax dollars) on a rather consistent basis. Even worse is that the reported research results are often so cloaked in manipulative language and scientific technicalities that, unless you read it 3 or 4 times, you have no idea what it’s saying.

        When I studied for my MS in Psychology, one of the text books on “Critical Thinking” specifically categorized astrology as “pseudoscience”. Scientists work with tools to explain certain phenomena. They do not add additional tools to their tool box. As a result they are biased because they actually do not think out of the box. If they can not explain it with their tools, then it does not exist! However, astrology is another tool that may explain that which can not be explained by so-called scientific method….which in my opinion is grossly outdated!! Sheesh.

        Also, I did not view the show you mentioned. However, basically what they did was offer a placebo….the astrology reports that were all the same….the “control group” was expecting an astrology report designed just for them…they did not think they would be fooled (placebo)….alas…a very poorly designed experiement 🙂

        Scientists fear astrology because they know it works. They also fear it because THEY can not explain it. What people fear they attempt to invalidate and destroy.

      • Rob Hand gave a brilliant lecture about why scientists fear astrology–astrology, for sure, is a paradigm-buster for scientists, because if it works, then all their ideas on causation are wrong. It was included in a book of essays Rob published, don’t recall the name except that it probably has the word essays in the title.

        Later: I’ve added to the post a link to a series Rob wrote. Donna

  6. Absolutely!!

  7. I have the good fortune to be married to an open-minded, ethical academic/social science researcher (he is a Libra with a massive stellium in Virgo). In our twenty-five years together, he has never once disparaged my avid study of astrology; in fact, he often asks my opinion about current trends in light of outer planet transits.

    It makes me all the sadder to see sneaky,snide shell games try to pass themselves off as “scientific de-bunking.” Yes, there are “bad” astrologers out there, who try to manipulate uninformed people. but there are “bad” scientists as well. I sincerely hope the good ones in both fields can have more real dialogues.

    • Amen to all that, Mary. It sounds like you found an exceptional mate. Donna

      • Yes, he is a keeper! And through getting to know him and his colleagues, I am consistently impressed that the best researchers and most brilliant thinkers are almost always quite humble and willing to let their egos take a backseat in their pursuit of meaningful data. But egotistical self-promoters do very well in academia and the social sciences….as well as every other career field in contemporary culture, come to think of it.

  8. Actually, there was an extensive research project on the validity of psychology. I recall seeing a documentary about how psychology grad students were sent to various hospitals complaining of very vague symptoms and all of them were admitted as psych patients with various diagnoses from schizophrenia to manic depression, all from the same symptoms. But as you noted, Donna, that is really more of a hoax than scientific research.

    • Oh, no, I hadn’t heard of that one! What an outcome, and I hope all those grad students got good debriefing after going through something like that.

      At least, they all got first hand experience in what their future clients would be going through–really good training in empathy, though pretty drastic. I was thinking just yesterday that I really ought to invest in a subscription to Psychology Today.

      Readers, you rock! This is precisely the type of exchange I was hoping for. Donna

    • You might enjoy “The Psychopath Test” by Jon Ronson”

      • Please forward to Anthony Weiner; he may want to take that test.

      • No no I meant it in earnest – the book flows very handily into the dialog. It’s about a test that was developed that later became the basis for that psychiatrist’s reference book with all the “ailments” in it (can’t remember the name of the reference book) .. “The psychopath test” is a great read, a fascinating read. Weiner’s not worth the divergence.

      • The book is the DSM-5 (or whatever the current version is). Diagnostic Statistical Manual. It describes various mental difficulties like schizophrenia or autism. At one point homosexuality was included as a form of mental disorder. Currently they’re debating whether “internet addictive disorder” should be added. Donna

  9. A true scientist does not assume but looks at their own theories with skepticism

  10. psychologist? (rolling of eyes here) – well there you have it folks, that’s how they practise medicine, they just make it up….they’d never figure out an astrological chart with all the goings on in a person’s life… i mean really, consider the source… i think those ‘subjects’ are seriously owed a free bar tab at their favourite bar!!! zut alors

  11. Recipe for peaceful coexistance; Those that mind don’t matter. Those that matter don’t mind.

    • There is also this to assuage the heat of anger: Astrology has been around and taken seriously for a lot longer than this current bout of contempt, about as long as “contempt before investigation”, in fact, so there is no way to “win” against ignorance other than by practicing the craft with all due diligence.

      Mostly these last few decades have seen “personal astrology” come to the fore. This means, by nature, most consults have had have a therapeutic angle to them, rendering them somewhat private and something clients will not readily discuss with others casually. So astrology has become less understood by the casual observer than it had been in the 70s.

      Now, with uranus (ruler of astrology) in mars and currently making a cardinal square to mars, from cancer(!), there’s bound to be some fur fly and fisty-cuffs. The moon will join the square soon to fan the cardinal flames… People are going to want more actionable advice from astrologers about securing concrete matters now (watch the housing market dodge-the-bullet-dance in a few days) …

      I see a trend where electional and horary astrology make a comeback, even! It would be great if any practicing astrologers out there in the thread would give us examples of any trend shifts in thier clients’ concerns! I am going to take a deeper look into what the concerns were the last time uranus was in Aries. So … I see astrology just having another “cardinal shift”! Let’s treat it like a client and give it an actionable reading!

      • Good points! While I haven’t been doing direct practice with astrology for several years, except for my Dell Advice column (recently retired from it), here’s how I interpret the prevailing winds.

        I’ve been involved with astrology since Uranus (the main significator of astrology) was in the sign Virgo. And with every sign shift, Uranus seems to explain what is going on in the astrology world. My favorite was Uranus in Scorpio, for it was the heyday of psychological astrology.

        So while Uranus was in Pisces, it seemed to be stagnant…many of us oldsters who’d been around the field for 40 years or more seemed to be getting pretty stale, still talking about the same old things in the same old ways, and so I was looking to Uranus in Aries to bring us new blood and a fresh new approach.

        Alas, I was right, it was new blood all right, but not–so far–what I’d hoped for. Instead, what people seem to be looking for from astrologers are quick and easy answers that lead to direct action. Forget about psychological insight that leads to growth, forget about working on myself, just tell me what to do to get what I want, ASAP.

        I am afraid that much of value that has been learned from years past will simply be discarded. As soon as I finish the stellium book, my next major project–with my longtime friend Kathy Kreshock–will be to find a structure to preserve medical astrology texts and tapes that would otherwise disappear, because most of the recognized medical astrologers of the past century have either died or retired, and I don’t know of anyone who’s teaching classes in it any more.

        Kathy has a giant library of those materials accumulated over 40 years that we will be working to make available, most likely on The Cloud, so that absolutely anyone can freely access them. I’m excited about it, as it’s quite a legacy we mustn’t lose. Donna

      • This in reply to Donna’s reply to me. (for some reason the “reply” option is absent. ) “And with every sign shift, Uranus seems to explain what is going on in the astrology world.”

        So true. I would like to point out that a crossing over into a cardinal from a mutable sign always feels like a big shift and the ones that most we notice as evidenced by more “external” events.

        There was plenty of quiet, deeper work going on with uranus in pisces, especially when it was in mutual reception with neptune. I found those that were learning the discipline were after something akin to “as above so below” but not as concerned with the “as below” as with the “as above” and how 3D was a fractal expression of that. I have always felt the mutable signs are akin to retrograde planets in their expression. I bet when you were learning under the uranus in virgo period there was a great “coming out” as it moved into cardinal libra.

        ” Instead, what people seem to be looking for from astrologers are quick and easy answers that lead to direct action.”

        It’s early days yet and by the time it reaches the 3rd decadent there will also be a maturation of it’s expression.
        remember uranus in scorpio at first birthed all those silly coffee table books about sex in the sun signs with sexy pix and sultry text? By the end it was digging into the archeology of psychological motives and what makes people tick. Ah .. it always begins with the sun!

        “preserve medical astrology texts and tapes that would otherwise disappear,..”

        capitol idea! The cloud is great idea. There is a website
        that might further your interests.

        There are a small handful of rather obscure sites that are devoted to the more scholarly aspects of the discipline.
        Here’s another

        Anyway.. I have a few texts and, my friend, Rolly Frost has some very old node books etc. I will compile a list. I love your idea!

      • Love your observations about Uranus changing signs. And thanks also for the links to medical astrology classics. The project isn’t exactly my idea, it was more of a compromise in that I was hounding Kathy to write a medical astrology book with info on those medical astrologers who had passed on, and she’s just not a writer, so we came up with this instead. She has like a thousand astrology books going way back and probably twice that many tapes, but you and your friend may have some things she doesn’t, so a list would be appreciated.

        I hadn’t imagined we’d have help, but of course there is! One of my brilliant young astrologer friends is going to help us set up a site on the cloud with unlimited space for tapes and things. At any rate, she and I were born just about 10 days apart and have all the same conjunctions, so we’re a good team–we worked on creating the Astrologers’ Memorial Website together. We’re not officially starting until October, when we both finish our 9 years numerologically and start a new cycle with a 1 year. Donna

      • wouldn’t it be great to have a website that was a library/archive where we could go and get PDF’s and audio of these older (and some newer) works. Some out of print books, like those great books on siderial astrology I learned so much from the 70’s could be scanned and made avalable again! There is, I found out, a site that has back issues of “considerations” available, for example. A comprehensive resource archive would be great!

      • There are a couple of sites with free PDFs of out of print astrology books going way back, but I don’t recall what their names were. Try “free astrology books” or “free books”+ astrology on the search engines.

  12. 1) I encountered the most lucid and compelling argument for Astrology’s validity in THE CASE FOR ASTROLOGY, a book written by John Anthony West. I recommend it to anyone who needs ammunition.

    2) I recently read BIG DATA, a mind-boggling book written by Victor Mayer-Schonberger and Kenneth Cukier about the next information revolution: “our newfound ability to crunch a vast quantity of information, analyze it instantly, and draw sometimes astonishing conclusions from it.” The first thought that popped into my head as I finished the book was that a ‘big data’ approach could be used to test and ascertain the validity of Astrology once and for all. It would be similar to what Gauquelin attempted but on a much, much larger scale. Since ‘big data’ is a scientific tool being used by scientists themselves to generate correlations that don’t rely on “interpretation”, the results of such a project would be much harder to ridicule or ignore…with the added benefit that computer algorithms can’t commit suicide.

  13. This is such an awesome comment thread:) I always thought if I ever “did astrology” I’d want to combine it with psychology, since I believe both are very valuable “sciences.” Love the big data idea of crunching it for proof, but kind of like God, I’m beyond the need to prove it. There are many languages and symbols for understanding things and astrology is one of them. As is psychology, numerology, biology and lots of other “ologies!”

    Thanks you Donna for pushing that medical astrology book … it sounds fascinating and necessary.

    I’ve learned a lot in this thread. Thanks all!

  14. What I find so exciting about astrology and my own professional field classical music and singing is the ever changing mixture between facts, learned skills and the extreme intuiton that is always required to make what we do a living organism moving between conscious knowlegde and unconscious sensed realities.

    Since I was married to a wonderful doctor to 10 years, combining the conscious factual world and the dreams sensory oceans has triggered me for a long time. And then people can disown as much as they like. If you can’t tune in on the Neptunian wavelengths, no factual explaining will help…

  15. I am a Virgo, with Aquarius ascendant, and a stellium by house in 8 Libra (Moon, Venus, Neptune; Saturn and Lilith also in 8, but in Scorpio). With the exception of Venus at 23 Libra and Neptune at 24, the other two planets and Lilith are in, what they used to call, the Via Combusta (between 15° Libra and 15° Scorpio).

    I am a PhD in Educational Sciences, and a MSc in Occupational and Organizational Psychology, and a psychometrist, in the sense that I use fundamental measurement for my research data, which provides accurate interval measures for psychological phenomena. For example, to analyze labour market data: Big Data, indeed. I develop and test psychological instruments for reliability, validity and invariance across samples. My experience with the fundamental measurement techniques has taught me that most social science researchers use biased measures. Michell (1997) points out that commonly, social scientists suffer from a “methodological thought disorder”…So, if garbage infuses data, and bias (from “quick measurement methods”) is not removed, then garbage will be the output of research.

    Despite my social scientific background, I love astrology (particularly your blog Donna). In my leisure time I am a professional hand reader and transpersonal therapist. In my view, palm reading, aura reading, astrology, etc. are alternative instruments to describe, explain, or predict problems or events. I am skilled in statistics, but statistics is not synonym with Truth. Statistics provides techniques to calculate probabilities.

    The issue is that, whether you are a social scientist, hand reader, astrologist, or other kind of researcher, observer, counsellor, consultant etc, as soon as an actor (inter)acts with an object or subject, he/she becomes an instrument of what is acted upon: a medium, or mediator. Put differently, all actors (we) have to self-reflect on their individual reliability, validity and accuracy :-).

    Indeed, all encoded knowledge needs research. In applied sciences many research findings are applied on a daily basis, just like “folk knowledge”, and the knowledge of the ancient Rishi’s, and World Teachers. If modern researchers are too mentally arrogant to cooperate with practitioners, or neglect the opportunity to fine-tune and further test their theories, it is a waste of time to convince them of the value or validity of instruments they are unfamiliar with. That type of researcher doesn’t even “believe” in fundamental measurement 🙂 (which is just applied math.

    Fortunately, times are changing. Recently the famous Dutch mathematical physicist and string theorist Robbert Dijkgraaf, Director and Leon Levy Professor of the Institute for Advanced Study at Princetown pointed out that, in essence, human beings are living stardust. So, when such a great mind is able to discover that analogy, there is scientific hope for the future.

    By the way, Donna: My “clients” in my alternative practice are really looking for in-depth solutions for their structural problems. With a little guidance and advice, they learn how to better use their talents, and demonstrate that they CAN transform their problems independently. The same happens when I guide professional teachers in learning statistics, which is required to get access to MSc programs. In my experience, these guidances are parallel activities, in different domains. My students have successfully completed their entrance exams. In both situations: no quick solution for the clients, but serious work was required, and carried out.

  16. Hi, Donna–

    You mentioned Rob Hand’s book earlier. Indeed, it is called Essays on Astrology, and I treasure my dog-eared copy. His essay On Creating a Science of Astrology is a beautiful, balanced discussion of the science/astrology clash. Again, it is probably out of print, but it would be worth the search.

    • Oh,yay! I found it is available by going to

      • Thank you so much for looking up Rob Hand’s lecture title!

      • Thanks, Mary, I’m going to add a link to that to the post. Donna

  17. I have a PhD in physics and am naturally curious about things. So I started learning astrology as a hobby. I studied hundreds of charts (especially transits) given in just for fun. Although I’m not as knowledgeable as most of you, I’m very much convinced that there is some truth to it. Once you learn a whole lot of physics you start to realize how little we know about things… Perhaps there are laws (yet to be found) that connect who we are with the space-time.

    I think the problem with that whole program is that they don’t know the basics of astrology. They only concentrated on the part where you can use astrology to interpret our personalities. This is why some psychological analysis general to all human beings worked out very well in that situation. So in principle they didn’t prove anything other than finding out that there are certain basic things/feelings common to all human beings.

    In my humble opinion astrology is in fact a science, especially since astrology is not something that came out of thin air and is purely based on statistics and data collected over thousands of years it is no different than any other science that is based on probability. Most probably people have this misconception about astrology because sometimes articles in astrology tend to imply planets are doing certain things to us, but in reality what we see is a correlation between our birth time and birth place and the space-time and who we are or, correlations between a still photograph of the universe taken at our birth time and birth-place and where the planets are relative to that at the present moment and events happening in our lives.

  18. It’s always disturbing when astrology gets debunked. I’m always debunking psychology when I hear some of their theories. i always say to myself and whoever will listen “it’s astrological”. I used to think astrology was like knowing a good restaurant. I wasn’t sure the world could handle the revelations but now I think every individual needs to know their chart in order to understand themselves and those around them better. I would love to put out my shingle but am not sure I know enough. (Virgo Rising). Is there a class online that can get an amateur astrologer into the field of professional astrology?

  19. The amazing ego of James Randi, the infamous debunker of all things metaphysical, i.e., The Amazing Randi did a similar “test” by giving the same horoscope to all people in a group. Proving something by rigging the facts is not science. Ditto with the idiots in this stupid TV show.

    • About a week or so ago some “scientist” was on Good Morning America and said that the moon’s influence on sleep patterns were not caused by light or gravity. Really? and I suppose the tides are not influenced by gravity either. I could not believe what I was hearing. Did anyone see that segment? Who is this guy?

      • Hmm…there must be something to lunar energy ie: New and Full Moon because our local police department posts a chart of Moon cycles so they can ticket people (my assumption) or be prepared for more violence/ traffic issues and more. Wouldn’t you like to see a show hosted by both an Astrologer and a Scientist? 🙂

  20. I saw the report and thought is was bs~

  21. Re: Lorraine’s wish to see a show hosted by both an Astrologer and a Scientist. I am not a big TV watcher, but I would clear my schedule and pay good money to see THAT show!

    It could be similar to one of my favorite books, The Physics of Angels, which is a great discussion between theologian Matthew Fox and physicist Rupert Sheldrake.

    Just a thought, but if that dream show opportunity came about, I think Donna would be a good choice for the Astrologer side of the discussion.

    • Same here Mary..TV is mostly background noise…actually, the comedy of the Astrologer and the Scientist plays out between my scientific daughter and myself, rather hilarious and also exhaustingly frustrating 🙂 Reminds me of the historic Nature/Nuture debate…it won’t ever be one or the other, but a myriad of endless possibilities.

    • Kind of you, Mary, but I’m not articulate at that type of thing. I’m better when I write than when I speak, because it gives me time to organize my thoughts and revise it until it’s logical and in order. I think Jeff Jawer and Rick Levine would do really well at it…they’re articulate and bright, but not addicted to 4-syllable words. Donna

  22. I agree with Kaiousei no Senshi concerning Astrology and the 9th House, all traditional sources I have read state that Astrology is ruled under the 9th House. Astrology is both theology and philosophy (the theory of Astrology that is) therefore it makes most sense to be associated with the 9th House because of its intimate ties to those subjects. Astrology is the means in which to understand God (primarily Gods will) and creation therefore I dont see how it could not be associated with the 9th. I have found many times that the outer Planets often just collect associations that the traditional Planets already possess and are therefore quite useless (in my opinion) when interpreting charts (hence why I do not use them). I have even written a page on this concerning how you dont need the outer Planets in Astrology because all of their significations can be found in traditional Astrology, it just takes a diligent eye. Lilly, Your path is interesting. What Traditional authors have you studied under?

  23. Maybe you could ask Noel Tyl! Roarrrrr Hahahahaha

  24. Dear Donna,

    I sometimes try to imagine what would happen if astrology was too popular, widely accepted and recognized as a science. It could be great for the people who practice it and use it. But I have this fear that just like the gunpowder can make for pretty fireworks and deadly guns, the astrology (like almost every other science) could be misused. Or misinterpreted, oversimplified, completely computerised, etc. I imagine a future where one applies for a job and they still ask for a CV, but with the birth data on top. Then instead of wasting time for an interview or a test, they will use software with artificial intelligence to just answer “yes” or “no”.

    Looking at the Edward Snowden’s natal chart (if the given birth time was correct) nobody would have trusted him with secret information, especially regarding limitations of people’s freedom, with his natal Mercury on the ascendant, Sun in Gemini and MC in Aquarius. Actually, I think he has the ideal profile to rebel against the government and spread such information and maybe we still need those “mistakes”.

    I also imagine our birth data written on our IDs and when asking for a visa, they just check the data and say something like – oh, you have Pluto and Mars in Scorpio, you’re likely to be a violent person under cover, like a terrorist – no science conferences/business here for you then.

    Overall, I don’t think we can currently trust institutions that astrology will be used wisely and for our good, this is why maybe better astrology is not recognized as a science for now, but goes on being spread among the people who want to know, as it currently is. Thank you for sharing your experience and helping people realize the truth!

    I hope looking at it from this side can make you feel better for the next encounters with ridiculous people and their opinions or “findings” on astrology.

    Meanwhile, for all the sceptics, the royal family of the UK are using astrology advice to plan events and these aren’t people short on money, knowledge or power, this should ring a bell to all those being convinced repeatedly that the astrology doesn’t hold any truth. Maybe just someone doesn’t want them to benefit from it?


    • Oh, Dobromira, I don’t disagree with you at all, that astrology can be misused in the wrong hands. I’ve seen too much of that in letters to my advice column ,where people were badly hurt and shaken by things astrologers said to them. I especially get upset when new parents are given awful interpretations of what a child will be like when it grows up. Like one whose son had a huge stellium in the 8th was told he would be a sex maniac when he grew up. Donna

    • I see what you mean as in “a little knowledge is a dangerous thing” but I think that when people find out that they cannot predict a person’s behavior because of free will and upbringing then they will soon learn to use astrology as a tool for the benefit of all. Everyone has every sign affecting their chart and their lives.

  25. Astrology isn’t something to believe in, it is something to know about, said Noel Tyl. He was right. You see how curious it is that they never do such “experiments” with good responsible astrologers.It’s usually done with people that have very little or no understanding of astrology.

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