Posted by: Donna Cunningham | April 26, 2010

The Unsuspected Role of the 8th House in Fiscal Fitness

©2010 by Donna Cunningham, MSW

When analyzing an individual’s vocational potential, it’s important to examine the financial picture as well, for a chart may show great talent and a good work ethic, but unless barriers to earning and managing money are addressed, the person may never enjoy economic security. Most of us would look to the 2nd house for insight, but that would give an incomplete understanding, because two houses of the chart are in play here, the 2nd and the 8th.

The 2nd house shows earned income and other resources we bring to the table. The 8th, equally important, depicts the extent to which we rely on support coming from other sources such as a partner, family members, inheritances, government benefits, grants, and lotteries. The 2nd and 8th form an axis, and an overemphasis on either end of that axis may show an imbalance that can create both personal stress and strife in crucial relationships.

Extreme Examples of 8th-House Imbalances

What do charts of “trust-fund babies” — the offspring of the very rich — and children born into long-term welfare families have in common? Between my past social work jobs and my 40-year astrology practice, I’ve seen many charts in both categories. The charts are startlingly similar, and you might be hard put to tell them apart.

The pattern they share is one of a strong 8th house (say, the Sun, Moon, or several planets there) or a strong emphasis on Scorpio placements or Pluto aspects across the 2nd/8th-house axis.

 You’ll find similar signatures in the charts of those who marry into money, particularly with Venus–Pluto aspects or with Venus, Libra planets, or the 7th-house ruler in the 8th.

As different as the external circumstances of these three groups (trust-fund babies, welfare families, and those who marry into money) might seem, their internal life — their psychological makeup and the dynamics of their relationship to the source of support — is often much the same.

The 8th house is a relationship house, yet if there’s an imbalance in resources, over time it sets up an imbalance of power in the relationship as well. In order not to lose power over the recipient, the benefactor may even covertly (yet unconsciously) sabotage the recipient’s best efforts at career progress and self-sufficiency.

I find that members of these three groups share a deeply entrenched belief that they cannot earn their own living or succeed in a career of their own choosing. They’re utterly convinced that their resources (the 2nd house) are grossly inadequate to make their own way in life and that they have to rely on other people’s resources (the 8th house). Unless healed, this self-undermining belief could paralyze them from going after their dreams.

The “Benefactor’s” True Colors are Revealed

All too often, the supposed benefactor is gradually revealed as controlling and tight-fisted, so the bond deteriorates into an extremely demeaning one. For every dime that comes their way, recipients pay a heavy toll in lowered self-worth and loss of freedom to determine the course of their own lives and finances.

They live with the ever-present threat of losing that support unless they jump through hoops to keep the benefactor happy. At one extreme, the family matriarch threatens to write them out of the will if they don’t dance attendance on her. At the other extreme, the welfare computer sends out a notice that demands their appearance at yet another hearing to determine their continued inability to work.

Likewise, many a trophy wife keeps her husband at the cost of remaining decorative, being treated like a dependent child, giving up hope for a career of her own, and turning a blind eye to extramarital affairs.

Even if the 8th house is vacant natally, transits by slow-moving outer planets to the 8th or by Pluto to the 2nd may signal a decade when it becomes critical to keep finances in balance. Neptune transits to the 8th, for example, might represent an era of progressive enmeshment in codependent financial ties. With either transiting or natal Neptune in the 8th, long-term monetary support can be given in an insidious manner that slowly undermines the receiver’s capacity for self-sufficiency.Donna Cunningham's Email Astrology Course

 The benefactor’s motivation is generally suspect, though couched in saintly terms of helping others to get back on their feet. The “rescuer” — more aptly known as the enabler — is addicted to being needed, yet feels increasingly drained and victimized by the individual being “rescued.” I use quotation marks here because, like many Neptunian pairs, these connections can involve a history of progressive deception and self-deception on the part of both individuals.

It always seems that individuals like those described above work far harder to eke out demeaning dribs and drabs from their benefactors than they ever would at a job. It might be worthwhile for those whose 8th house is dominant to engage in a cost/results analysis to determine whether the relationship with their benefactor is cost-effective — or a form of self-sabotage and self-abasement.

Finding a Healthy Balance between Giving and Receiving

Am I suggesting that we should never rely on the resources — financial or otherwise — of another person? Of course not. There are times in our lives when we legitimately need help: while recovering from a major illness, for instance, or borrowing money to get an education.

The 8th house wouldn’t exist — or wouldn’t signify anything other than death, birth, and regeneration — if giving and receiving in equal balance weren’t part of the Universe’s plan for our long-range spiritual evolution. Equal balance is the key phrase here.

 When you allow others to give to you, be cognizant of the need to reciprocate in a timely manner and in equal measure — perhaps not always with financial repayment but with support that will be equally meaningful to the other party. Someday the bill will come due, and the quicker you repay your benefactor, the less financial and karmic interest you accrue!

career advice Donna Cunningham Dell HoroscopeScenarios of 8th-house financial dependence, of course, are one extreme of a 2nd/8th-house imbalance. The other extreme — an overemphasis on the 2nd with nothing happening in the 8th — can also be difficult, draining, and self-defeating over the long run.

That could represent the individuals who are absolutely unwilling or unable to look to others for support, financial or otherwise. This stance can make success or even bare survival far harder than necessary. The mystery is in keeping these two finance-related houses in balance, a learning process that is sometimes the lesson of a lifetime or series of lifetimes.

 Note: This is an excerpt from a much longer article that appeared in The Mountain Astrologer.  See their back issues for the complete version.

More Articles on Skywriter:

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  1. I have just discovered your site and want to thank you so much for the gift you’re giving everyone by sharing your knowledge and wisdom. Thank you

    • Thank you, Nathalie. I’m glad for the opportunity blogging affords me to teach and share what I’ve learned from 40 years of client work. Donna

      • Hi Donna,

        I have generally liked your posts and your book, but I think this one is imbalanced somewhat. I have Pluto on the Aries point in my 8th house. It is in an exact square to Venus on the Aries point in my 5th house. To make it all the more compelling, my Pluto is in Libra. So based on that placement, I should fit your description of how an 8th house pluto is, with regard to money, particularly in relationships. The reality of the way that mine functions, however is very different. I am a woman with a professional degree and a good career. I have several children. I have twice married, and neither time did I choose my mate based on his income. I have been on my own, and had my own income since I was 18. I take care of my children and I don’t ask for or expect any man to take care of me. I am, however, learning to expect balance, as I have often been too willing to take on more than my fair share of the marital financial burden. I am not adding this to criticize, but to say that there are a multitude of ways that planets manifest energy and charts, and it depends on the total chart. It is not helpful to people who really see the value in astrology and look to it for answers, to encounter stereotypes in chart analysis. Perhaps a powerful 8th house pluto with a strong venus contact enables a person to be financially powerful in his or her own right. That type possibility has to be allowed for.

      • Point taken and well-defended, PP. I would imagine that your chart has counterbalancing features, like a good 2nd house or house rulerships. Donna

  2. So true Donna! Thanks for a great article.

    I have sun, pluto and venus in my 8th (in Libra) and Saturn is about to go over all of them. My partner has neptune transiting his 8th.

    I can see the beginning of this enmeshment clearly from the beginning, but it’s never simple, is it.

    With my packed 8th house and moon in the 2nd, I have struggled to earn my own money, especially since saturn entered virgo, and have relied a lot of others, but I hate receiving money from others and it makes my throat sore (chiron in taurus) so the continual battle rages on.

    I have received various inheritances which have enabled me to make much needed changes, and then the money runs out.

    My mother started off as the enabler, and I tried to run away from codependent financial relationships at my saturn return and then ended up in a situation (no work visa or work after trying for months and months, sudden chronic illness etc) where I had to rely fully on my partner. This was hard for me especially after trying to make a big move to earn my own money at my SR, and then saturn curiously puts me in this situation…not sure what to make of that.

    I know feel like I am learning how to receive properly, without the constant guilt, (we are a ‘team’ my partner says) but after reading this article I am ruminating on his motives.

    Thanks Donna.

    p.s. I have a strong work ethic and have worked myself to exhaustion a couple of times in my life, but it doesn’t seem to be directed properly and my longterm financial thinking is bad.

  3. I kind of feel like Marge Simpson in that I’m a longtime reader but a first time stander-upper. But I have never once given my 8th/9th house Neptune a thought with regards to my financial issues. Thank you so much for the insight! Now it’s so obvious… LOL

    Thanks again,
    xx mm

  4. Wow! I have my sun, mercury and venus in the 8th house and since trying to understand the houses I wondered about all the 8th houses I have and why. What you described above I can so relate to. I hope I have worked on healing this. I always felt I could not work until I went back to school in 2005 at 35 and got my CNA/HHA/RNA cert. Then I finally after that broke the pattern of dependence. Although I have a tendency to fall back. I so do not like the dependence aspect and would rather depend on noone…. Thanks for this insight into my chart and myself.

  5. How can the energies of a strong 8th house be used in a positive way?

    • HI, Margaret. Well, first of all, giving and recieving in balance is part of the positive expression, making sure to give back. But there are, of course, other expressions of the 8th–careers in healing, transformation, regeneration, for instance. Helping others deal with the important passages of life–birth and death, especially. And sexuality itself can be a healthy, rejuvenating, positive force in our lives. Donna

  6. My mars and saturn are in the 10th house. My moon in the 6th house. My Jupiter in the 4th house.
    March 3, 1970 at 2:50 p.m. California…

    Love your blog. It helps give me insight into myself, others and astrology Oh yes, my north node is in the 8th house too.

  7. A (near) empty 8th house and a packed 2nd house: “…Absolutely unwilling or unable to look to others for support, financial or otherwise.”

    This is so true of myself throughout my life to date.
    four Leo planets in 2nd and a lonely Chiron in Aqu in 8th.

    • It makes the road so hard, doesn’t it, EJ? Speaking as someone who spent most of her life unwilling and unable until I was in dire straights health wise some years back. Donna

  8. Great job once again Donna? If someone doesn’t have any planets in either the 2nd or 8th house would you look to the 10th house for guidance?

    • Guidance in what respect? When both the 8th and 2nd are empty, then finances aren’t a major preoccupation or issue for the person. The big issues are elsewhere, except perhaps in phases where there are transiting planets in those houses. Donna

  9. Thank you for your blog, Donna. I’ve read your column in Dell Horoscope for years and appreciate your insight and guidance. With my Moon in my 8th house I’ve received both material assets (a small inheritance) and spiritual assets from my mother that have supported me in achieving my goals all my life. I hadn’t thought about the 8th house connection until reading your blog!

  10. This is really interesting. Makes me reflect on my relationship with a friend. She is highly 8th H concentrated, with her Sun, Saturn and Mercury there – all in Saggie – with nothing in the 2nd H and no aspects to it. I have Uranus, and Neptune in the 2nd, with nothing in the 8th H and no aspects to it either. We are the complete opposite when it comes to $. She has never ending dependent relationships with others and $. Much of these relationships are demeaning to her, but she can never seem to stop relying on others for $. I, on the other hand, have an extreme aversion to relying on anyone for financial support. So often times we get into arguments about her financial habits, especially when I she starts to depend on me. Donna, this article helps me see my friend in a new light.

    • Glad it helps, Inaness, and good that you resist getting enmeshed with her financially. She will always find someone to play out that dynamic, doesn’t have to be you. Donna

  11. Now in my life I find that people want take advantage of financially and want me to take care of them financially. They want to live off of me.from my mother to my ex.

    • I think sometimes our curriculum vita includes learning both sides of a life path. Donna

      • I think so. And I think that is a great way to learn compassion and empathy and to not judge when you are one role versus the other as one can be either side of the coin at any given time or life.

  12. I also wonder about whether that is a way to balance karmically from other lives having alot of 8th house in your chart. Because like in my case I am Pisces North Node which says that these people have mastered being out in the world… meaning working.

    So I am wondering if then this can also be a way to balance. As Pisces North Nodes are needing to retreat from the world, for me to have both in one life I think helped with the lesson of Pisces North Node having to learn compassion and to not be perfect and not be judgemental….

    What is your take on that? Could that also be the case?

    • Absolutely. I’ve had enough past life readings or recalls that I get the picture that in our many lifetimes, we play all the roles as part of our curriculum–abused and abuser, sinner and saint, robber and robbed, etc. etc. It’s important, though, not to conclude that we deserve abusive treatment because it must mean we abused the other person in another life. Donna

      • So true, Donna. In fact, I think that sometimes when people encounter abusive situations in the present life, the lesson may be that we must learn not to put up with abuse – perhaps there were several past lives in which the person did put up with abuse and the lesson now is to stop considering it acceptable! Past-life/present-life links do not necessarily conform to the most obvious interpretation (though when a person remembers a past life, I think the correct interpretation usually does become clear).

      • That is true Margaret.
        And I have encountered abusive type of treatment in this life ( I have and 8th house sun, Venus and Mercury and Pisces north node) and the people that have done it were not good to me in past lives. And my pisces north node says I need to leave people like that, that staying only hurts them, it does not help to try to be understanding and tolerant and I have found that I have gotten to a place where I have boundaries with these people that I did not have when I was younger or I have left them or refuse to have much to deal with them, depending on their role in my life

      • Good for you, Patricia! This is an example of the value of exploring past life memories with a good counselor. I’ve been doing that myself lately, and have found it extremely valuable. Sometimes knotty problems that resist clearing through other methods can suddenly resolve much more easily.

      • Margaret,
        I actually used to go to a person who regressed me in my twenties. In my thirties I learned to do regressions and progressions myself. Nothing like doing things yourself I think.

        And I can do it for others as well and am able to tune into what they are seeing which helps me to guide them on their journey. I took a hypnosis class and learned techniques for that but you really do not even need the hypnosis. Of course I have been meditating since age 20 so maybe for some the hypnosis is helpful. For me it is as easy as 1,2,3. Anyways. I have not done one on someone else in a while. Something I always did for free, like my reiki….

  13. Hi Donna;

    I have the ruler of my 8th (Cap sun in the 12th) in square aspect to the ruler of my second (Uranus) with a Pisces moon in the 2nd square Neptune. I have the moon conjunct Pallas-Athena as well, widely conjunct the North Node in Aquarius in the 2nd as well (square Venus/Jupiter!). Money has felt like that ever-elusive commodity that, if I get any at all, slips through my fingers via an endless loop of bills and taxes (and I have never been an extravagant person, either!).

    Asking for help is difficult, too… I always feel like help comes with strings attached so I try to avoid it… but today I got a huge tax bill in the mail (ARGH!) so I’ve surrendered and have contacted a bankruptcy trustee.

    The irony of all this is that if I had NOT listened to the critics around me (parents!) and worked at building the artistic/creative (read: “too risky!!”) career that I wanted—rather than take a soul-sucking dead-end job just for the “security”—I might actually be in a better place financially (and emotionally) than I am right now. Some days, I just want to become a monk and avoid the money issue altogether. 😉

    Anyway, thanks for the articles and your insights—they seem to be arriving just when I needed them!! 🙂

  14. Hi again, it kinda sucks that i dont know anyone who’s into astrology but oh well. with venus in Pisces in the 8th, a couple of years ago i loaned my christmas/birthday money to my boyfriend.. well it sounds dumb but i lent him the money so that he could buy pot and sell it (oh and it was my idea) and then he was gonna pay me back. but instead of getting cash from him i would just sort of forget about it because we were always together, 24/7 and i didnt have a job so he always payed for everything, food, movies, weed(pisces likes to get high, to put it bluntly) whatever. so it kinda sounds like i was getting the short end of the stick but it was actually the other way around..

    my second house is empty and i feel like i definitely have a tendency towards this imbalance you’re talking about. i didnt have a life of my own. i was actually very dependent on him. i was 17, and my whole life was this relationship. anyway after feeling really unhappy for months and months i halfheartedly attempted to just end our relationship cold turkey…
    but you can guess how that went, it was not pretty, but after about a year of off and on and things i regret in between, i can honestly say i feel like ive re-established my indepedence. but its an ongoing battle, because were still best friends.. its weird. eek, im getting way off topic!
    i think contributing to this dependency is my seventh house sun/libra moon, but also thanks to that i have been able to see the imbalance and take steps to correct it.

    donna, i hope i havent strayed too far from the point and that this is somehow relevant lol

    • What you’ve described is similar to the 8th house part of a relationship. Vah, why don’t you join in some of the astrology discussion groups online? You’ll pick up a lot of astrology that way, and people are happy to swap insights into their charts. (see the blogroll list near the bottom of the righthand corner of this blog) is a good one. Donna

      • thanks donna, that suggestion kind of set off a lightbulb 😀

  15. Hi Donna. Very interesting. I have mars in cancer in the 8t (right now in a direct opp to transiting pluto). I don’t depend on anybody, but have always struggled with money issues. Mars is not very aggressive in cancer, so perhaps this is why. It’s more of a worrier than warrior in this position I think. Perhaps pluto will give it (me) some backbone …

    • Transiting Pluto in the 2nd should help you shift the dynamic…kind of like having a Mars-Pluto aspect. Use the search engine on Skywriter to find my articles about Mars-Pluto aspects, because they help you amp up your manifestation mojo. Donna

  16. I have Scorpio Pluto in the 8th, Libra on the cusp of the 8th. Venus is unaspected in the 4th house (but square ascendant, opposition MC)

    I have a Taurus Moon in the 2nd (but it is just 2 degrees away from being in the 3rd house. So I wonder if both 2nd and 3rd House issues influence the Moon?) Cusp of 2nd house is Aries, with Mars in my 1st house.

    Pluto opposes my Moon.

    My 2nd house of values, and self-worth. With Moon inside, I think I have inherited a lot of values from my Mom, although she constantly undermines my self-worth, she does inspire me to be a person with integrity foremost even with the temptation of money.
    I will say that money is very important to me, I would feel uneasy if I don’t have a comfortable amount in the bank. Sometimes I think my thoughts manifest wealth to me “come money come!” (oops have I just betrayed how materialistic I am) But I have never really felt down and out broke before, somehow even though I am not rich at all, my money seems to have a way of replenishing itself. Is it because my Part of Fortune exactly conjuncts Moon in 2nd house? My mom in contrast, undergoes much stress about money issues, she does use the fact that she supports me and the family as power control over me, but to a large extent I’m shielded from any dire straits that we have ever gone through financially.

    How the 8th house dynamics play out is as such: I have an paternal aunt who is together but not actually married with an extremely wealthy man. So my aunt becomes the benefactor of my family (the entire extended family) and lately they have given me a some of money that requires me to betray my sense of self-worth (long, complicated story). Though the rest of the extended family accepts their money readily, there are lots of politics involved, jealousy, power plays and all that. I feel obligated to my aunt, and the uncle ad under their control. Pluto, I feel, exercises its dark temptations and power plays over my Moon. It’s a constant opposition, sometimes I lose my sense of self when coming in contact with their money.

    My Mars in Pisces is nuts though, it wants me to use the money I was given by the uncle for good, like giving it all away to the next person who needs it.

    Thanks for reading up to here if you did, I am long-winded. 🙂

    • Thanks for sharing it, Heidi. If you haven’t been following this series, there’s lots more to learn about the 2nd in recent articles on this theme. Donna

  17. Pisces does not like to get high always. I am a pisces also with a pisces venus and i do not like to do drugs or even drink and i quit smoking over 3 years ago.

    • There are many meanings of Neptune. Drug and alcohol abuse is only one. Donna

  18. I have a question. What if the ruler of the 8th is in the 2nd? I have Pisces on the 8th, and NE conj. SU in Libra in the second. I’ve never been able to fully “get” this one.

    • It’s more indication that the question of achieving a balance of giving and recieving support equally is an important issue to master. Donna

  19. Dear Donna and readers, I thought it was interesting when I took Brent Kessel’s “Financial Archetype Quiz” that I’m mostly an “Idealist” and I have Uranus in my 2nd house. I was wondering if these types correspond to the planets/signs on the 2nd or 8th house for other people, too:

  20. Great post on II/VIII Houses’ dynamics! You really go deeper than most, while remaining practical and realistic, into covert issues of dependency and self-sabotage.
    The similarities of charts’ placements between people in such diverse circumstances is another proof that it is indeed difficult to ‘interprete’ planetary aspects without knowing something of the prevailing circumstances in the individual’s life.
    Thank you for your insight and experience.
    Paola Emma

    • Thank you, Paola, I can see that you really get what I’m trying to say. You’d find additional posts of that type in the category “Pointers for Professionals.” Donna

  21. I have Saturn in the first house, Neptune in the 2nd…nothing in the 8th. I totally get the “codependent money” thing. I feel like I have to take care of me…and everyone else. I took my reading your recent articles about the 2nd house and fiscal issues to realize that my Neptune is NOT about my “values”…it doesn’t make me give because I am so spiritual. It is sucking me dry! I am getting tired of it and wondering why no one takes care of me (but still, I probably wouldn’t let them). I think I believed that since I was giving to others, the day would come when I needed help and it would arrive….where’s Santa?

    P.S. Need I mention I am surrounded by family members with full 8th houses.

  22. This is a great article. I’m teased, and will read the full version right now. Thanks!

  23. Scorpio planets, Saturn, Mercury and venus in 2nd house, no planets in 8th. I asked for help and the help I recieved was as you described, to keep the benefactors needed. I refuse to ask for help now, I will somehow always make sure I – and my family has what it needs and some of what it wants. After that experience, I somehow came to believe I could do it on my own, the price of asking for help was way to steep!


  24. This post struck a chord. I have 3 planets in the 8th, including the Sun and my 7th house ruler. I have a lot of experience of people handing over their resources to me. Even when I feel that I’ve earned it, there’s still a bit of guilt there for me to take it. My mom has SNode in Taurus and refuses to directly ask others for help – even though she really wants it. I think she gets jealous of me when I receive “easy” favors/resources from people, and she guilts me into handing it over to her. E.g. We both stayed in a hotel together. I’m the only one who got eaten up by bedbugs. I barely complained and received full refund plus medical costs plus extra for my suffering. Who ended up acting like that money belonged to her? “Well, you sure did manage to get some sympathy, didn’t you?” Um, yeah…from strangers. This kind of situation has happened a lot.

    Also, men propose marriage or live-in commitments to me a lot, always with offers of “taking care of” of me. An ex broke my portable DVD player. Instead of replacing it with another DVD player, he bought me a laptop that plays DVDs – way more than I wanted. He refused to let me give it back. Later, when we broke up, he listed that & all of the other gifts I never asked for as proof that I “used” him. He never counted the gifts I gave him.

    I recently went on a trip with a woman who insisted on paying for everything. I refused a meal, went to the bathroom and she had bought me one anyway.

    My 2nd house is empty and ruled by Saturn. I have no planets in Taurus. a catch 22 situation for me.

    • WOW! Reading your comment was like reflecting on my own life. I can definitely relate to your experiences.

      My moon and Mercury in Aries, and Venus in Pisces are all in my 8th (Venus trines Pluto in Scorpio in 4th though, lightening the load a bit).

      The pattern for me seems to be: my Mom and Dad as my benefactors and my friends as the people I serve as benefactor to. My SO has great similarities with your ex bf, and I have also received an offer of money for marriage so that they can “take care of me.” WOW!

      My SO has Neptune and Uranus in the 8th so his money situation is very unpredictable. In the days when he doesn’t have any, I help him out by buying him food and getting him things that he otherwise could not have bought. And still when we argue about him spending too much on me, he also does not remember these instances!

      I also find myself in situations where I am coerced or have no choice but to let other people pay for me. I also find myself in situations where I spend all my money on my friends because of the guilt I feel in receiving said money. I also feel so dependent on my parents’ money (I’m fresh out of college) and my SO and I’m yearning to break free and be financially independent.

      Some of my friends envy me for always having a source of finances, they don’t know the guilt it produces to always have to ask for money!

  25. So good that I could read this article. The first time that somebody understood my Neptune in Eighth. My Second house is empty, my Sun and my Neptune form a conjunction in my Eighth house and are in a sextile with Pluto, which is in my large and packed Seventh. I confirm that my life is horror. I’m so much tormented and badgered and have to jump through loops. Since many years. I hope that balancing and repay the “benefactor”, about which is talked in the article, means to take revenge? This isn’t what I’m demanding, but I want so desperately free myself of this situation. But of course the advice in the article isn’t an advice, because the house placements of the natal chart won’t go away! Would a relocation help?? It is my current plan. A cheap enough place is hard to find, my currently favored place would move all of my Eighth house into my Seventh, but Saturn would change from Third into Second. Perhaps even that would be good, because Second no longer empty then? Finally, does a Eighth, which is emphasized versus the Second, make it easy to marry off to money?

    • You might explore the idea of relocating. Rather than trying to figure out where to go by yourself and perhaps make a costly mistake in your choice, considering you situation, it would be wiser to consult someone who is a certified practitioner in Astro*Carto*Graphy maps. See a list of them at

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