Posted by: Donna Cunningham | July 12, 2010

Understanding the Mundane Square—Your Input Needed

©7-12-2010 by Donna Cunningham, MSW

Skywriter’s readers have participated eagerly in a series of research projects into little-known aspects like the septile (51.5°), semisquare (45°), and sesquiquadrate (135°). As of today, 137 of you have reported on your semisquares in the comment section. It’s been great  fun to see these mysterious aspects come alive through your stories, so let’s continue.

In my early days in astrology, I heard an ancient teaching about an aspect called the mundane square in which any planet on the Ascendant is considered square to any planet on the Midheaven or IC. The two planets may or may not actually be  in numerical aspect to one another, but supposedly they act as though they were square.

Skeptical at first, I discovered a mundane square between Pluto on my Ascendant and my Moon on my Midheaven. It not only rang bells, it sounded a gong that pretty nearly deafened me! Certainly there are other chart features that speak of a difficult relationship with my mother, but when I read descriptions of a Moon-Pluto square, they were eerily accurate.

We can find justification for mundane squares in the research done by the Gauquelins, which proved statistically that planets falling within 10° either side of the angles of chart (ASC, MH, IC, and DSC) assumed a powerful significance in people’s lives.

I haven’t heard anything about mundane squares in ages but have been thinking about this aspect-that-isn’t-an-aspect lately as one we might explore together. Here’s what you can do to join in:

1) Look at your chart to see if you have a mundane square.

2) Consider whether those two planets form any other aspect to one another, even a minor one.

3) Is there any other type of connection between the two planets?  For instance, if the Sun and Uranus are in mundane square, do you have the Sun in the 11th or in Aquarius or Uranus in Leo? If so, that creates another sort of connection that could partially explain any effect of the mundane square.

4) If there is no other aspect or connection between the two planets, then think about the qualities and issues they represent and see if they are a pattern in your life. (If you’re new to astrology, then read descriptions of aspects between the two planets in books or look for them on line.)

In your report, think about the meanings, urges, and needs represented by these two planets and about how they affect each other. Ask yourself whether you can see that combination of planets operating in your life.

How do they show up in your life in terms of behavior patterns, feelings, urges, repeated situations or events, and inner and outer conflicts?

Conversely, what gifts, abilities, and personality traits do they convey? Think of specific, concrete details, not abstractions.

5) Tell us your conclusions in the comment section for this article by scrolling down below the bottom of this article.  Read what others are saying about their own mundane squares.

Incidentally, in looking for what was written about the mundane square, I came across a mention of this and other little known aspects being studied by Placidus de Titus in the 1600s.  (That would be the Placidus for whom the house system is named.)

Since astrologers have known about these aspects for centuries, it’s a wonder we don’t understand them better than we do. I suspect they spent more time looking through telescopes than looking at what was going on in their own homes and lives.  Here’s a detailed  case example of a mundane square: Outtake from a Moon-Pluto Life

More Articles from the Series about the Lesser-Known Aspects:

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 If you’re already a subscriber and want a copy, forward the most recent email post to me at moonmave@spiritone.com. To sign up for a subscription, go to the top right hand corner of the blog and click on “Subscribe.”  Then send me an email with your subscription confirmation or an email post with a request for the booklet in the subject line.

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Responses

  1. Okay, so let me see if I am understanding this correctly. I have Mercury conjunct the ASC in the 12th and I have Pluto conjunct the MC in the 10th. While they form a tight sextile, would this be a mundane square? Could the same be said about my 7th house moon conjunct the DC and that Pluto in the 10th?

    • Hi, Katie, It sounds like you hit the mundane square jackpot. Both the Mercury-Pluto MS and the Moon-Pluto MS should work. Try the article on Mercury-Pluto aspects to see if it holds true (unless you already have a Mercury-Pluto aspect): http://skywriter.wordpress.com/2010/06/22/understanding-mercury-pluto-combinations/ Donna

      • Reading up on interpretations of Mercury square Pluto and Moon square Pluto, I find that I identify more of the positive expressions of those two energies in both case. Yes for rooting out information obsessively, to take the Mercury/Pluto energy for example, but I don’t think of myself as deeply suspicious or other lower expressions of that energy. It could be that I feel the tight sextile and so I have a knack for detective work.

        The Moon/Pluto expression actually was a little more in line with me, but still I think I tread more with the positive expressions. Perhaps this could be my very wide Moon/Pluto trine (10 degrees separating) or it could be the mundane square.

      • Actually, I’m not so sure that the “mundane square” is necessarily as difficult an aspect as the ordinary square–possibly not so much squarish as it is a highlighting of the qualities of the two planets. That’s one of the things I hope to get more information about from this posting. Donna

  2. I’m not too sure on this 10′ orb. I have an apparent mundane square, but collectively it’s really close to 10′ so let me know what you think.

    I have Uranus at 8′ Leo, ASC 3’52″ Leo (I only used the seconds because it’s so close to 4′).

    I have Venus at 14′ Aries, MC at 19′ Aries.

    So as I read that, Uranus is in an approximately +4′ orb, Venus is in a -5′ orb, making them both about 9′ out of a mundane square. And at this angle, I never would have seen this as a regular square.

    But I figure, it’s well within your specification. I suppose it would be in orb, even if it was +10′ and -10′, making it collectively 20′ beyond a square.

    Well, as far as its effect, I just don’t know. As far as both love and money, as ruled by Venus, I have had more than my share of problems and unexpected changes.

    • I don’t think you take the orb collectively, Charles. If Uranus is within range of a MH conjunction (yep) and Venus is in range of an Asc conjunction (yep), then they are in a mundane square. As well as a wide trine (6 degrees), which could muddy the issue further. Donna

      • Hmm.. didn’t see that trine. You know, I tightened up the default orbs on my astro software per the specifications of your “how strong is your Uranus” calculations. I think it’s closer than 6′ on trines. But I poked it in my laptop, same software but unadjusted and there’s the trine. Ha.

  3. i have jupiter in aries conjunct my asc in the 12th and neptune in capricorn conjunct my midheavan in the 10th (cusp of nine). i have always had foggy whimsical ambitions. when i was a kid i would tell be i wanted to be a roof builder/explorer! now i want to be an astrologer.

    my neptune is unaspected (except for sextile pluto in scorpio but thats generational and i dont feel it at all) and my jupiter is trine my moon/saturn conjunction in sag in the 9th. ive also got venus in aries conjunct my ascendant in the first.

    i feel neptunian in work-flowing, boundryless, easy to push around. but my capricorn midheavan/aries ascendant often takes over when push comes to shove and the work gets done. i think its mostly in my goals-being pushed towards a spiritual
    life.

    • Hi, Anna, it sounds like you have both Jupiter (in the 12th) and Venus (in the 1st) making mundane squares to your Neptune on the MH. The two Aries planets may being over-riding the Neptune in Capricorn, giving you the energy you need to carry through with your desires. Donna

      • i agree that the aries planets are quite strong! im still young so i have felt my MH strongly until recently, when i started working at a local grocery chain and got 4 promotions in 6 months-but it wasnt my ambitions so
        much as i was the only person who could do the work with a smile.

        the more i read about neptune and careers the more im intriqued. do you have any recomendations for books about neptune? what are your favorites?

      • Favorite books about Neptune? No. Maybe other readers can tell you what’s good, especially any good recent ones. There are many articles about Neptune on this blog, with some about career and Neptune. Donna

      • I have neptune rising, and so I’m an expert on neptune, only through life experience. But I recently discovered Karen Hamaker-Zondag’s book on “The Twelfth House” which is quite amazing. Not about the planet, but about the house. It’s still very helpful for neptunian types, and with your neptune on your midheaven, you might find it interesting.
        Also, I think you got the promotion for your smile due to the saturn/moon conj. in Sag trine Jupiter… career moves (Saturn ruling your MH) before the public (moon) with a smile (Sag/Jupiter)… an optimistic goat… lucky career moves… take care, Regine

      • I haven’t seen the book but would recommend it sight unseen. Anything Karen wrote on that topic would be of the highest quality, for she is a class act. I may have mentioned earlier that she’s a date twin of Caroline Myss, the metaphysical teacher. Donna

      • Another Neptune book suggestion for Anna:

        “The Astrological Neptune and the Quest for Redemption” by Liz Greene. It’s a huge work, over 500 pages, but man is it worth it!

  4. I have Neptune in 12th at 11’07” Scorp, and the Asc in Scorpio at 21’12. The moon in Virgo is at 10’59” (9th house), the MC is in Virgo at 21’35”, and on the other side is Mercury in the 10th at 1’11” Libra. I never thought of these planet in conjunction with either MC or Asc – I’m not sure they are now? Neptune is sextile the moon (and three other planets in that stellium). Now I’m confused …

    • Well, they probably aren’t conjunct the Ascendant or Midheaven in any powerful way. The Gauquelin sectors do stretch to 10 degrees either side of the angles, but this sounds rather weak. Donna

      • Good! Thanks, Donna.

  5. Okay, so I have Venus *actually* square Asc. Venus is conjunct my MC. My Neptune is also conjunct MC, but I guess is a mundane square to the Asc. So I am guessing the Venus-Asc square would be much more straightforward in expression.

    • A mundane square involves two planets, one conjunct the Ascendant and one conjunct either the MC or IC, so this isn’t a mundane square, though Venus is making a real square to the Asc. Donna

      • Okay, I got it now! Thanks! I don’t have any mundane squares. I looked through my files and can’t find anyone else (out of about 30 charts) that has one either, sorry I can’t be of help!

  6. This is interesting… I have the sun in Cap in the 12th at 10˚, 1 degree away from my ASC, with Mars, Venus, and Jupiter in Scorpio Conjunct the MC. My chart ruler Saturn is in Taurus, trining the ASC/sun, conjunct the IC, and opposing Mars.

    I’m not sure if I’ve felt the mundane square energy of these configurations… I already have major squares between all my personal planets (Sun/Uranus, Moon/Neptune, Mercury/Pluto) so it’s hard to pinpoint where the trouble originates!

    • Hi, Chantelle, you’re right, it would be impossible to sort out all those configurations, but do just regard them as strengthening a considerable amount of Capricorn-Scorpio personal power! Donna

  7. I have the Sun in the 12th conjunct ASC (9degrees) and Chiron in the 10th conjunct MC (6 degrees). In my career I was always fixing things behind the scenes and cleaning up messes of others as I worked in PR. People ALWAYS tell me their woes and no, I never ask, they just tell me. If I ever made a mistake in my career it was always brought to light for everyone to take a look at, much to my chagrin! I learned to keep a CYA file to justify all my decisions. With Neptune and Chiron currently transiting natal Chiron, I have changed careers in mid-life and am pursuing a new career path in the healing arts and astrology! Lots of blessings in disguise, LOL, and yes, I laugh at myself now!

    • Sounds like the mundane square is working. Are the two careers you’ve pursued both Chironic in nature? Donna

      • No, the careers are night and day. First career in PR & Media, but the good part is that I got to travel all over the world, especially in Asia, where I learned a great deal about the healing arts. It was as if the Universe said, “ok you’re through with that” only I didn’t get the memo and was very confused as I watched my career fizzle to nothing, only to re-invent myself after the Jupiter, Neptune, Chiron conjunction to my MC exact on my 50th birthday. I am slowly converting the PR clients to my Healing Arts business, as they still want to tell me their woes! It works out!

      • thanks flor checking back in, Robin. It sounds like you’re headed in a Chiron direction. Donna

  8. Well, this is interesting. My Ascendant and Midheaven are already square (orb of 3-1/2 degrees), but I have never thought of my 9th House Uranus being square to my 1st house Saturn-Neptune conjunction (and there’s no other aspect between them). Uranus is about 5 degrees short of my Midheaven, though I definitely feel the conjunction. And the Saturn-Neptune conjunction is 6-7 degrees past my Ascendant into the 1st house. I feel this conjunction, too – you’ve mentioned boundary issues as an effect of Saturn-Neptune aspects, and those have played a big role in my life, but I also do feel that this conjunction gives me an unusual ability to blend artistic/poetic/spiritual inspiration with the detailed, nitty-gritty work of getting things down on paper in a systematic, well-crafted way so that other people will relate to it and understand it. The delaying effects of Saturn also seem evident.

    My Ascendant is in Libra, and at times my relationship with my husband has definitely interfered with my writing career. Also, from the time I first began writing as a teen, I have struggled with the problem of starting writing projects and losing interest (or feeling overwhelmed) as I get past the beginning stages, and never finishing them – this could be a Uranus effect, although I’ve always associated it with Sun-in-Aries (and my Sun is in opposition to my Saturn-Neptune conjunction). However, the novel I’m working on right now has an astrological theme. It’s a huge, ambitious project, and I think squares function best when one uses them to blow past one’s fears and summon the energy for a big, breakout change.

    Like Chantelle, I have lots of squares in my chart, including a grand cross, and it’s not always easy to separate out the energies of all of these squares individually!

    • Your reporting is always full of interesting detail, Margaret, thank you. How I envy you working on an astrological novel! Donna

  9. I have Moon 18 Leo conjunct the Ascendant 17 Leo, plus Uranus 14 Leo. Then I have Jupiter and Neptune at 0 and 2 Scorpio conjunct the IC at 7 Scorpio. (I could add that my progressed Venus and Sun are also conjunct the IC.)

    I’ve never thought there was any connection between these aspects (I also just discovered the semisextile between Jup/Nep and my Sun, with Neptune within a degree of midpoint between my Sun square Saturn; and Jup/Nep sextile my Mercury and Venus/Pluto). I suppose Neptune weakens the hand of all those planet sets that it aspects, but the Jupiter/Neptune optimism generator pumps away!

    • I don’t know, Les, the combo of Mars/Uranus/Asc in Leo with Jupiter/Neptune sounds almost like Don Quixote, if he had lots of panache. Donna

      • Not Mars, *Moon* Ascendant and Uranus! That changes things, no?!

      • Ah, sorry, I misspoke. (miswrote?). Nope, I think the Moon in Leo is even more so than Mars, more panache. Donna

      • Quixotic then, con brio. :-)

  10. I have Jupiter 3 degrees away from my IC in Virgo,
    but my 1st House Sun is 2 degrees out of the 10 dergee orb for my ASC.

    Does it matter that I read my chart with the Koch house system, and not Placidus?

    With Placidus SUN/ASC is only out of orb by 1 degree. and JUP/IC is exact.

    • that’s odd because the Ascendant and Midheaven ought to be identical in Koch, Placidus and several other systems. Donna

      • the only oddity was myself – I was looking at my Solar Ret info for my curretn place of residence.
        In my birthplace there is no mundane sq. at all.

        However in my current Location, SUN/ASC is only out of orb by 1 degree. and JUP/IC is exact.

        Are there such a thing as ‘transiting’ or location specific Mundane Squares?

      • Good question, EJ. I suppose relocated charts might have some effect from a mundane square. One thing Astro*Carto*Graphy practitioners look for in doing a session for a client is something called a CROSSING. That is a combination where one planet is on the relocated Ascendant at a particular latitude and another is on the relocated MC or IC, which sounds to me like a mundane square, but you’d have to run the chart to see.

        Then, and this is weird but has to be mathematically correct as it’s computer generated, the crossing is active not only at that location but at all cities around the world having the same latitude.

        As for transiting planets hitting the Ascendant and Mc/IC at the same time, I don’t know if that’s a mundane square, but it sure sounds like a cosmic train wreck! Donna

        PS. I do have a partial post in my notebook about the fact that many people with late Virgo to early Libra have about the same degrees on all 4 angles. (Say early Libra on the Asc would put early Cancer on the MC, early Capricorn on the IC, and early Aries on the Dsc.) That setting would have the current Cardinal t-square hitting 3 of the 4 angles at once, by actual square, by mundane square, and by still another set of minor aspects called antiscia.

        And, no, if you fall into that group, I won’t interpret that for you. You’d really need to go over it one on one with an astrologer.

  11. Have Sun conj asc- H1- cancer-28/25

    Mc is 8 aries- with Jup at 13 aries

    mars- 12 cancer- H12

    neptune- 16 libra- H4

    I am an artist and craft designer…

    I have unusual work patterns, hours- etc &

    I work from home

    I LOVE the night ( odd for someone born at sunrise ?)

    I do my best work late night & alone-

    in my eclectic surroundings

    I have found Jup opposite Neppy to not be the ‘monster’ some say at all

    My2,

    Krista aka- cardinal mania

  12. Gr8 post Donna & btw I know the ‘beauty’ of a Moon-Pluto square! I have Chiron in Aquarius in 12th 10 deg away from my Pisces Ascendant and it is square to my Gemini moon on the IC but truly my little moon has the greatest stress on it (square Pluto, Uranus, Chiron; inconj Jupiter, ssq Mars, opp MC). By contrast my Sun is happy camper, no heavy aspects at all and yes my mother and I (who died at 44) had a very intense rship, she’s still around after dying 30 years ago!

    • Oh, boy. Lise, from those aspects, I get a strong impression that you’re very mediumistic and if so, need to shore up your boundaries against spirits who may be making your life harder than it needs to be. Have a look at the website of Patricia Walsh, who works with ancestral spirits and other related phenomena, and writes about the subject. Donna

      • Donna, thanks for the headsup and comments and I think mediumistic thing is spot on, probably the Neptune conj my Sun also adds to my permeable nature, though with Pluto opposing my Ascendant and being a Scorpio Sun I am quite the emotional toughie on some level! I love the interactiveness of this post, great seeing everyone’s comments and your replies Donna, fabulous! big hugs xx

  13. I am not sure this one will help because it’s a real square and a mundane one.
    Venus 25* conjunct MC 18* Capricorn
    square
    Uranus 27* conjunct Desc 2* Scorpio

    I’ve had trouble making and maintaining relationship connections with people as I often feel like a bit of an outsider. I am much more comfortable when I see people on an irregular basis! Even in my job I do not see my co-workers or supervisor on a daily basis; I jump from one location to another. I do not like feeling obligated or responsible to other people in the emotional arena but I have been told frequently I am reliable/dependable. Interesting to see how much of a thread this is in my life when I think about it.

    • Having it on the angles–regular and mundane square–would make it an extremely strong aspect, especially with Uranus (?in Libra, is it?) is conjunct the DSC, which is connected to Venus. And if Uranus is in Libra, which Venus rules, it would mean that Venus also disposes of Uranus. That gives you about 3 different ways that Venus and Uranus are connected, and thus this aspect is a strong theme in your life. Donna

  14. 1) Look at your chart to see if you have a mundane square.
    Saturn at ASC + Mars, Sun, and Venus stellium at IC
    Moon at DES +Mars, Sun, and Venus stellium at IC

    2) Consider whether those two planets form any other aspect to one another, even a minor one.
    Saturn is square Venus
    Moon is square Venus

    3) Is there any other type of connection between the two planets?
    My Moon in Libra and Venus in Cancer are in mutual reception
    My Saturn in Aries has my Mars as its dispositor

    4) If there is no other aspect or connection between the two planets, then think about the qualities and issues they represent and see if they are a pattern in your life.

    Saturn msq Mars – I insisted for so many years in so many relationships that I didn’t NEED anyone while fearing just how much I did indeed need them. I have built some heavy duty walls this way. (I listed this one because I am not sure of the strength of the dispositor effect.)

    Saturn msq Sun – I struggle with self-criticism and hypersensitivity to the real or perceived criticism of others. My fear of failure can often overwhelm my dreams and desires and keep me from pursuing them.

    Moon msq Mars – No one has ever accused me of being “laid back”. I am up, I am down, and I am certainly all around. I have not mellowed with age. Instead, I seem to have become more passionate about just about everything than when I was young.

    Moon msq Sun – I am painfully aware of my inner conflicts and contradictions but feel unable to truly resolve them. Instead, I often settle for a state of ambivalence.

    • Wonderful job of analyzing the aspects, Mari. Your chart is surely big on planets on the angles and thus on these mundane squares. Donna

  15. Fascinating topic Donna, thanks for getting us all thinking once again.

    I have N. Node at 3 Gemini, on the 12th house side of the ASC, within 2 degrees. Then I have Mars and Moon at 1 and 3 Aquarius closely conjunct the MC in the 10th. They are already in aspect – a trine.

    Certainly, there is a strong urge to communicate…writing about astrology etc. Perhaps it’s a good tool I can use to help me overcome the insecurities about cleverness/communication reflected by my Mercury Sag sq. Saturn Pisces. Interestingly, I have several ancestors who were writers…just mentioned that because I think N. Node in the 12th can be an ancestral/karmic thing too.

    • Interesting, Mandi, hadn’t thought about the Nodes as part of the mundane square picture, but you make a good case. Donna

  16. I have ASC 12degrees Libra with Pluto conj at 9 degrees, then I have my Sun at 16 degrees Cap conj IC at 14 degrees….

    Moving on then I have Saturn conj MC at 15 and 14 degrees Cancer, and Chiron 19degrees Aries right next to the DEC at 12 degrees Aries.

    Pluto, Saturn and self identity themes are huge in my life. I am still not sure about how that Chiron/Sun/Saturn thing is working out. Hard to be articulate about one’s own chart. This post and comments have given me alot to think about……

    • Your mundane squares are quite a tangle–but are they also a Cardinal Cross? That would make it hard to sort out what role the mundane squares play.

      More personally, are you practicing in Cork, Ireland? I’ve been yearning a bit for Ireland lately, as I traveled there a good bit giving workshops in the 1980s and loved it. At that time, Dublin was the center and not much else going on. Tell us about astrology in Ireland, if you have some time. Donna

  17. Hello Donna,

    Great idea for a topic!

    One thing that I would like to “correct” is the idea of what a mundane square IS. If the Sun is at the MC (no matter where that MC is) and the Moon is at the Asc (no matter where that Asc is), then YES, they are in mundane square to each other. No problems there, you have stated that correctly.

    What is left out, is (for instance) if the Sun is 23% (or any amount) of the way from the MC to the Asc, while the Moon is 23% of the way from the Asc to the IC, then they TOO are in mundane square. (If the Moon were 23% of the way from the Dsc to the MC, they would also be in mundane square.)

    I think you are right to focus on the mundane squares involving conjunctions to angles, since those are the OBVIOUS ones. I just wanted to comment, so that no one (mistakenly) believed that mundane squares are limited to planets at angles, they are not.

    Something to ponder… the themes of the houses form three grand crosses… Houses 1,4,7,10 & Houses 2,5,8,11 & Houses 3,6,9,12. No matter the skewing of houses that goes on by various house systems, the MEANINGS of the Houses MAINTAIN their mundane “squareness”. In other words, (for example) with 2,5,8,11. The 2nd House (self-worth) is ALWAYS in dynamic tension with the concept of giving love (5th), others’ values (8th), and love received (11th).

    Our “self-ness” (1st) is always in dynamic tension with others (7th) and our parents (4th & 10th). It has to be that way…growth depends on it.

    I hope the last two paragraphs didn’t in any way deter from the general thrust of this thread. I include them as philosophical points to ponder…

    Peace

    James

    • Oh, dear, I should run these technical things by James, our Science Officer, before publishing them. Well, at least I did get the part about the conjunctions to the 4 angles right, so that doesn’t deter from what people have written so far. He’s just adding more types of mundane squares. Donna

    • PS. James, can you add anything about locality charts and whether the mundane squares in them have an effect? EJ Runyon was asking about it above. Donna

      • Hello Donna,

        I am still thinking about EJ’s question.

        If he moves (or has moved) to a place where more than one planet is on an angle (as per your original thrust of the Mundane Squares discussion), then CERTAINLY, that should have a strong effect of “enhancing” (good or bad) those particular planets. How they sit natally will be a good indicator if that planet angular is good or not. It starts to get complex quickly, since there are various things to juggle. (Ex.) Is the client’s natal “stay-at-homeness” (seen as a detriment) going to be counteracted by putting Mars on his MC? Will his challenges on the “world stage” rather drive him further into reclusion? These are, as I already know you know, questions that have to be answered individually based on individual charts.

        The bottom line in this (imo) is that we consider the Mundane Square as a MEASUREMENT so that we might know something. If EJ (or anyone) has moved to a place where a planet (or planets) are on one angle and other planets are on an adjacent angle, then for all intents and purposes, it is a mundance square. The new location will have that area of life (described by WHICH angle) influenced by the planet’s angularity. Since the THEMES of the houses in square/opposition (as mentioned in a previous post) are ALWAYS in dynamic tension, then those planets influencing those areas of life in dynamic tension, will THEMSELVES be in some type of tension.

        When I moved to Tucson, it moved my 9th House (natally) Jupiter to the MC and 12th House Mercury to the Asc. They are in square natally, but cadent. Moving made them angular. (ie. at this location you WILL be dealing with these issues) In Tucson, I went to work for the Postal Service (if that doesn’t sound like Mercury-Jupiter!). Additionally, I amassed an astrological book collection of well over a hundred books. (also fitting obvious Mercury-Jupiter symbolism) They were all over the house, so a hundred is actually a pretty conservative estimate. The problem was…that moving to Tucson, also moved my 3rd House Pluto to the IC. Sure enough that was the location that my Mother died and also it was a place that I felt “trapped” me and was holding me back from further growth. (hence Germany) Here, my Sun is RIGHT ON the MC and with no other angular considerations. For someone that ultimately wants to be an astrologer and to be seen as a “helper”, moving to a place that puts my Cancer Sun on the MC should be a major help… I am already gaining some recognition in various ways, true to the symbolism.

        The one real negative is that moving here also moves Neptune (not in mundane square) into my 2nd House. As my Wife’s Neptune is there natally (and here), we both are always asking ourselves “where did the money go?” Neither of us ever knows!!! I can only say thank goodness that this location also puts Jupiter on my 6th House cusp, so that there is always work to do and that it has “brought me” international clientele.

        Some of those have come from your graciously posting my rectification article on your blog. Thank you again for that, Donna!

        Take care,

        James

      • Thank you, James. As always, I know when I’m over my head and need to call in someone who’s more savvy about the technical elements. You are the default setting on that! Donna

  18. Huh – I was going to write yesterday, to say that actually… oh wait.

    On second thoughts, here’s a zany scenario:
    Jupiter (0 degrees scorpio) is square the MC (3 degrees Leo). I guess that would explain the fact that luck, despite being my rising planet, seems to have little to do with any worldly success I experience. I have found I need to work TWICE as hard as others to achieve what they do. Or maybe the Jupiter holds me back by making me lazy. Either could work, n’est ce pas?

    Okay, the crazy bit: Uranus (1 degree Sagittarius) at the end of the first (retrograde BTW), is trine the MC. Wild, huh? I find that I am a classic contrarian in public, no matter how civil I am about it. Come to think of it, I am contrarian no matter what. What a life! :)

  19. Donna – these exercises in looking at your own chart are so useful! If you do them properly, it’s quite funny what you find!

    I am thankful particularly since my Saturn Return is coming up in Oct – transiting the 12th!

    I hope all this counts as hard work and understanding of self!

    • I for one believe that Saturn sees all we do to improve ourselves..just like Santa Claus. Donna

  20. Hi Donna – I have a regular and mundane square between my Pluto in the 12th (conjunct my Virgo ascendant) and Mars in the 9th (in Gemini). I guess I’m pretty typical of that square in that I’ve experienced (or observed) hidden abuses by authority figures which have required putting my retrograde Mars into action. You already know how I took on the Elderly Care Facility that housed my mom by exposing their unsafe (and illegal) practices when I successfully complained to the governing state agency. And when I was still a teenager, I compiled information that allowed me to recover funds from a so-called ‘religious’ organization that was ripping me (and others) off. Up until that point, no one had ever got any of their money back, so I caused quite a stir. Those are just a few examples. I’ve also written the President regarding health care reform and have even received an email back (haha).

    The common theme seems to be related to me uncovering the truth, or else recognizing the hypocrisy. It’s not the easiest square to live with since it comes with a certain amount of responsibility. My Gemini Mars feels compelled to communicate in a constructive way that serves my Pluto in Virgo, even when my retrograde Mars and Pluto in the 12th would rather lay low. Extreme matters of principle (9th house Mars) or a need to advocate on behalf of others (12th house Pluto) seem to be the main factors in driving them out of hiding.

    This is a great post – I’ve really been enjoying the comments and have learned a lot.

    • Wow, LB, you are using that mundane/natal square to its highest potential, as a crusader against secret corruption by those who are supposed to be caring for the downtrodden. So courageous, so beautiful. Dr. Phil and Oprah also have that square (but in different houses) and they do use it to help and heal multitudes by exposing what needs to be healed.

      The danger, especially with the 12th involved, is that of becoming a target of retaliation, especially when anger clouds one’s judgement. You seem to somehow avert that danger. Donna

      • Thanks Donna. One of the best descriptions I’ve ever read on Mars/Pluto energy was written by you, in your 2009 article, “Mars Pluto Aspects – What Determines How They’re Used?” I can’t tell you how much I appreciated your insights. Prior to that, much of what I’d read didn’t fit, since I’m not a raging bully.

        I have experienced retaliation, which is why I choose my ‘battles’ carefully. The hardest thing about this aspect though, is realizing how easy it is for people to refuse to acknowledge what could so easily be made better, and also how easy it is for people to look for a scapegoat instead. Good thing I have a lot of faith.

      • Very, wise, LB. A crusader who knows the potholes and hidden snares along the forest path is a wise crusader indeed. Donna

  21. Another excellent post, thread, and topic. I now realize that I have a mundane square between Saturn and the moon, which has certainly been in play all my life on many levels, even though they are not otherwise in aspect. Great food for thought.

    • Pretty remarkable, isn’t it? When I learned the meaning of my mundane square between the Moon and Pluto, it reverberated to the core of my being and explained so much that the other aspects to my Moon simply did not. (I’ve just published my Moon-Pluto story this morning. Donna

  22. I forgot to mention the connections (which I think you wanted us to look for). Both my Mars and Pluto are ruled by Mercury, and my Scorpio Mercury is ruled by Mars and Pluto. It’s also right on the cusp of the 3rd and in mutual reception with my Pluto (in the 12th). Again there’s that emphasis on communicating in a Plutonian way that addresses the concerns of the 12th and 9th houses; my Mercury is conjunct Neptune and Jupiter.

    • Rule of three, folks, rule of three. That’s how we find the major themes in a chart. Donna

  23. Hi Donna…
    I noticed in an earlier comment from EJ that you spoke of the people who have late virgo, early libra rising, therefore having the current cardinal T-square on their angles. I am one of those people with early Libra rising and am about to have that T-square on my asc. /nadir/ desc. I know you may not want to discuss this now, but would you consider doing a post on people who will be having this phenomenon. I am very curious how other people are dealing with it, and how it feels to them. It’s been very powerful, life changing, transformative, and at times very painful. But amazing… I hope you will consider doing this. I think it would help all those who are going through it. Thanks, Regine

    • Yes, I will write it, Regine. It’s been sitting in my notebook for ages, but I think I was waiting for Saturn to move back into Libra. That will happen any blessed day, because it sure has gotten OLD in Virgo. Donna

      • Thanks, I look forward to it! Regine

  24. This is a real ‘slow-burn’ for me, Donna (Yes, despite a Merc-Saturn trine, I’m slow sometimes – or is it my 2nd house Neptune? I need a drink to clear that up ;) ).

    Why slow-burn? I looked up your rules again – and re-read Mari’s comment.

    And finally understood a key part of my chart: I have a Mundane square between my 9th house Sun and 12th house Saturn.

    And it’s just what Mari said.

    Which in turn just strengthens my conviction for trying the Sunflower essence.

    • Oh, Mercury-Saturn aspects of any sort aren’t fast, they are deliberate and meticulous, which is better than jumping to conclusions. I could see that Saturn/12, Sun/9th mundane square maturing into a fine scholar, so by all means give yourself Sunflower….but it’s likely to take a while! Donna

  25. My Venus in Gemini is within 8 degrees of making a square with my MC and with Chiron in Aries. I can’t draw any conclusions, though, given that my Venus is also square my Moon, Pluto, Jupiter and Uranus. It’s like my whole chart decided to gang up on my Venus.

  26. Sorry to be dumb here,
    but I didn’t understand something you said above…
    You said that for instance if someone had
    Sun in 11th or aquarius
    Or Uranus in leo
    That would create a connection
    That could partially explain
    Effects of the mundane square.
    Why is that?
    Thanks in advance for enlightening me.

    • Hi, Snow. Well, each planet has a sign and house associated with it.
      Uranus is associated with Aquarius and the 11th house.
      the Sun is associated with Leo and the 5th house.

      So, if the Sun and Uranus are in mundane square
      but the Sun is in Aquarius, then there’s a second connection between the Sun and Uranus.
      Or if Uranus is in the Sun Leo, there’s another kind of connection between the Sun and Uranus.
      Then that second connection strengthens the effect of thr mundane square. Donna

  27. this is interesting… i have sun in scorpio 12H, uranus in 12H conjuncting Asc, mars in virgo conjucting MC, moon in gemini conjucting DC… so how many mundane squares i have?

    speaking of the effect… i have always feel the opposition of the uranus and the moon… the two opposite part of me… one wants freedom, the other wants security… its so hard to balance that… and it affects every aspect of my life… work, relationship, living condition… almost everything… yet i am not sure what’s the role of the mars in these aspect…..

    • Three mundane squares, it sounds like. Are the Moon and Mars actually square, and if so, that would intensify the strength of that mundane square. Donna

  28. Donna writes:

    “PS. I do have a partial post in my notebook about the fact that many people with late Virgo to early Libra have about the same degrees on all 4 angles. (Say early Libra on the Asc would put early Cancer on the MC, early Capricorn on the IC, and early Aries on the Dsc.) That setting would have the current Cardinal t-square hitting 3 of the 4 angles at once, by actual square, by mundane square, and by still another set of minor aspects called antiscia.

    And, no, if you fall into that group, I won’t interpret that for you. You’d really need to go over it one on one with an astrologer.”

    Hey! I resemble that remark. :) It’s not THAT bad. I have ASC-Libra and DESC-Aries at 1 deg 22′ positions, and MC-Cancer and IC-Capricorn at 1 deg 28′ positions. So yes, I am LIVING these cardinal grand cross times! :)

    Three of these Cardinal Angles have conjunctions, but with late degree Mutable positions. So that’s a T-Square (or 2 mundane squares).

    The T-Square is 29 deg Gemini Mars conjunct MC, opposite 25 deg Sagittarius Jupiter conjunct IC, both square to my 12th house Virgo Sun at 26 deg. Anytime a planet moves through late degrees Pisces, it completes my planetary mutable grand cross. (And right now my Mars is completing the current cardinal grand cross transits.)

    I also have a masculine mystic rectangle with Jupiter opposed to Mars and Chiron (Aqua – 5th) opposed Uranus (Leo – 11th). Throw in a lot of 12th House planets and figure the signs in my houses are all ruled by their polar opposites, and I understand why you would send someone with my chart for a one-on-one!

    Life is certainly not boring, that’s for sure. :)

    Thanks for all your great articles here. I’ve been reading and soaking up a lot of great information lately. Keep up the good work. It helps more than you know.

    • Hi, Criss Cross, welcome to Skywriter. So, yeah, you’ve been through the whole sequence already, and lived to tell the tale. Maybe YOU should write a post about it, or anyway market t-shirts that say, “I Survived the Cardinal Cross of 2010.” Donna

  29. The Msq is new to me but I looked at my daughters chart and she has:
    Neptune Jupiter in Sag conjunct late degree Scorpio mc in the 10th.
    Mars in Aquarius in the 1st on the asc sextiles to Neptune /Jupiter .
    Saturn in Gemini conjunct IC 4th house is in opposition to Jupiter/ Neptune.
    If you count the nodes they are conjunct asc s node 12th hose and n node 6th house.
    Seems like a lot going on there.
    Would act like a tsq with mars at the apex? She is a very intense person.
    Adrienne

  30. I need some clarification on something James mentioned. Have Sun and Mercury conjunct in 10th house in Cancer. The Moon is in the 12th at 6 degrees Libra but not on the asc . The asc is 22 Libra.
    Does this still connect the Sun and Moon in a Msq? Please explain.

    • The kind of mundane square I know must involve 2 planets, one conjunct the Ascendant and the other on the Midheaven or IC. The kind James is talking about, I honestly don’t understand either. Donna

  31. What about Jupiter in Leo conjunct the asc in the 1st. In msq to Mercury in Scorpio conjunct the ic in the 3rd house and Neptune in scorpio conjunct the ic in the 4th house?
    There are no aspects between these planets. So would Jupiter enhance these two planets?

    • Jupiter generally just expands whatever it touches. So it might just make them “squarer.” Donna


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